Author Topic: P-38 turnfight  (Read 7232 times)

Offline mechanic

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #90 on: June 04, 2011, 10:31:09 PM »
Tragic one. Best not to post things like that here as some of our community are in the same circles as air show pilots. Not having a pop at you, just a case of considering the community we are in.
S!
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #91 on: June 04, 2011, 10:36:49 PM »
Looking at 38's and found this footage from Duxford
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHB-9V-VORU
Any idea what went wrong?

What BatfinkV said.  Poor taste to post that one.  A great pilot died.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #92 on: June 05, 2011, 12:08:37 AM »
We actually have friends (Kraits) who used to fly AH and AW who were there.

It was not a control failure. It was a tragic accident that took the life of a great man and destroyed a piece of history.

Nuff said.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

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Offline df54

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #93 on: June 09, 2011, 05:11:49 PM »
   

 
Read Corky Meyer:

At the Joint Army/Navy Fighter Conference on October 16, 1944, I tested the P-38L dive-recovery flap well in excess of its 0.65 Mach-number limit. Upon actuation, they instantly provided a smooth, 4G recovery without pilot effort. Immediately after I evaluated these "jewels," they were installed on all Grumman 17817-1 Bearcat fighters.

No pilot effort---the nose pitched up from deployment of the dive recovery flaps--around 10-20degrees pitch up.

Pilots also experimented trying to turn tighter using both combat manuerving flap (fowler) &
dive recovery flap to slightly get the nose around quicker. The majority of pilots that experimented utilizing both set of flaps thought it gave a little extra in nose pitch but the combination was draggy and bleed energy.

But then again if you are doing the "Clover Leaf Manuever" speed wouldn't matter as you were heavily stall turning to gain an advantage.


This issue has been raised before. Others insist that deployment of dive recovery flaps have no noticable effect on
pitch and no brakeing effect.  As far as im concerned the above description proves beyond any doubt the p38l
flight model is wrong.





a






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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #94 on: June 09, 2011, 06:27:43 PM »
   

 
Read Corky Meyer:

At the Joint Army/Navy Fighter Conference on October 16, 1944, I tested the P-38L dive-recovery flap well in excess of its 0.65 Mach-number limit. Upon actuation, they instantly provided a smooth, 4G recovery without pilot effort. Immediately after I evaluated these "jewels," they were installed on all Grumman 17817-1 Bearcat fighters.

No pilot effort---the nose pitched up from deployment of the dive recovery flaps--around 10-20degrees pitch up.

Pilots also experimented trying to turn tighter using both combat manuerving flap (fowler) &
dive recovery flap to slightly get the nose around quicker. The majority of pilots that experimented utilizing both set of flaps thought it gave a little extra in nose pitch but the combination was draggy and bleed energy.

But then again if you are doing the "Clover Leaf Manuever" speed wouldn't matter as you were heavily stall turning to gain an advantage.


This issue has been raised before. Others insist that deployment of dive recovery flaps have no noticable effect on
pitch and no brakeing effect.  As far as im concerned the above description proves beyond any doubt the p38l
flight model is wrong.


That is only one example.  A worthy example, no doubt.  I'd be willing to bet that HTC has files and files of documentation on flight characteristics written by pilots on most of their aircraft, US and UK in particular.
Proud grandson of the late Lt. Col. Darrell M. "Bud" Gray, USAF (ret.), B24D pilot, 5th BG/72nd BS. 28 combat missions within the "slot", PTO.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #95 on: June 09, 2011, 11:04:26 PM »
The AH model, with regard to dive characteristics and the dive flaps, does not quite match Corky's experience, nor does it match Tony Levier's, or even Ben Kelsey's. It's not horrible, but it is off some. Also, not too long ago, WideWing had a real P-38 pilot fly the AH P-38, and his opinion was that the AH P-38 had a serious lack of elevator authority, and a few minor issues. All in all, the AH model is not bad at all, but like anything else made by humans, it is not perfect, either.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #96 on: June 10, 2011, 05:43:25 AM »


This issue has been raised before. Others insist that deployment of dive recovery flaps have no noticable effect on
pitch and no brakeing effect.  As far as im concerned the above description proves beyond any doubt the p38l
flight model is wrong.


And those people would be incorrect.  The dive flaps do work on the P-38L and no, there will be no "braking effect" when deploying the dive flaps because the dive flaps didn't work that way.  The problem is that most deploy the dive flaps too late to be of any use, which leads them to believe the dive flaps aren't modeled correctly.

ack-ack
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Offline Debrody

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #97 on: June 10, 2011, 06:52:00 AM »
Then what those dive flaps do?  Im just curious.
AoM
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #98 on: June 10, 2011, 11:32:07 AM »
They are dive flaps and not dive brakes. They do not appreciably slow the aircraft. Maybe I need to try it again, but in a dive from 20K, in AH, and in AH II, they do not create a hands free 4G pullout. They never have, in my experience. Buffeting should begin just before .64 MACH, and provided the dive flaps are extended by .67 MACH, the buffeting should ameliorate or at least lessen, and the plane should start to recover once you get in thicker air. In fact, most pilots who knew what they were doing said if you stuck with the plane and flew it instead of panicking said that once it got into thicker air, you could pull out without the flaps. The dive flaps themselves do not actually affect the shock wave of compression, nor how or where it forms. What they do is alter the center of lift on the outer wing, so that the plane can regain a nose up attitude. Note that the dive flaps are on the outboard wings, but the thick wing section on a P-38, where compression happens, is the center wing, between the fuselage booms and the center nacelle. THAT is where compression occurs, as stated later in this post.

Witness Robin Olds' story http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITRLk9b9AcY of shooting down two Me 109's and then diving to attack two on the tail of a P-51 and entering a severe compression dive. He pulled out (it blew out a window, which was common, the MACH shock wave that causes compression forms where the wing fillet and the cockpit nacelle join at the window) leveled off, and proceeded to shoot down another M3 109 that attacked him at treetop level. Notice there is no mention of dive flaps.

Note, Dogfights is wrong about several things here, including the "approaches the speed of sound" (the P-38 would not approach the speed of sound, it went into compression at around 490 MPH), and the visual of compression and what happens during compression, it does not cause elevator flutter or lock the control surfaces, it renders them ineffective because it shifts the center of lift, forcing the nose down. Now, Robin Olds was wrong, too, he thought pulling G's blew out his window, but the cause was compression and the shockwave. If you read Warren Bodie's "The Lockheed P-38 Lightning" you'll find that the radius of the center wing fillet where it joins the center nacelle, and the fit up around the roll up window on the side of the cockpit, are both the most critical components in how and when compression effects the P-38. In fact, had that radius been increased and extended again, and the cockpit design altered slightly, it might have improved the compression issue further, and raised the threshold again.

Another thing I found seriously wrong with the P-38, although it is a somewhat minor flaw, is that the wheel brakes just plain suck. The proper run up procedure has the pilot hold the plane at the end of the runway and build 54" of boost, while the plane remains still. This was to prevent the problem of engines stalling or cutting out as the throttles were advanced no take off. I've seen it done, repeatedly, and all of the current pilots flying restored P-38's that I've seen practice this religiously. I watched Steve Hinton do this to Glacier Girl dozens of times, the plane sits still and shudders while the engines howl, then the brakes are released and it rockets down the runway.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 11:35:10 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Widewing

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #99 on: June 10, 2011, 12:40:52 PM »
Gentleman, the dive recovery flaps will not work if you have auto-trim on... They work as advertised if you trim manually. Auto trim will counter the pitch-up effect. Go offline and test it. Take off or auto-spawn from a 30k field. Neutralize elevator trim. split-s into a dive and immediately deploy the dive recovery flaps. Now, go hands-off. The P-38 will pitch up and recover with no input from you...
My regards,

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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #100 on: June 10, 2011, 12:42:22 PM »
Gentleman, the dive recovery flaps will not work if you have auto-trim on... They work as advertised if you trim manually. Auto trim will counter the pitch-up effect. Go offline and test it. Take off or auto-spawn from a 30k field. Neutralize elevator trim. split-s into a dive and immediately deploy the dive recovery flaps. Now, go hands-off. The P-38 will pitch up and recover with no input from you...

Interesting. The P-38 is the one plane I never used auto trim on. I'll give it another try soon. Thanks.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Debrody

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #101 on: June 10, 2011, 12:47:11 PM »
thanks <S>

Widewing: im flying with a mouse so its not as easy to find the center position...  you mean, like a tempest?
AoM
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Offline Widewing

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2011, 12:47:46 PM »
Interesting. The P-38 is the one plane I never used auto trim on. I'll give it another try soon. Thanks.

I just went offline to verify what I had written above.... The P-38 didn't change pitch at all. It required a tiny bit if nose up trim to get the pull out started (hands-off). I remember that it used to work... So what changed?
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Widewing

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2011, 04:24:08 PM »
Alrighty.... I tested both the P-38J and the P-38L offline to compare what, if anything, the dive recovery flaps do. Again, manual trim, neutral elevator trim at beginning of the dive.

I began a dive from 28k, reducing power to about 50% after the onset of buffeting (which begins at Mach 0.64, a bit low IMHO).

Once I deploy the dive recovery flaps, I see that I have reasonable elevator authority at Mach 0.73 on the L model. However, the J model has absolutely none at Mach 0.73. Adding a bit of trim to the L allows for a quicker rotation (pitch-up). On the J model, you must add a lot of trim, but must still wait until it descends much lower for the trim to get a bite.

So, the P-38L's dive recovery flaps provide much more elevator authority at high Mach than the P-38J without them. Just remember that you must be in manual trim or they do nothing whatsoever.
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline Karnak

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Re: P-38 turnfight
« Reply #104 on: June 10, 2011, 04:52:26 PM »
Widewing,

Correct me if I am wrong, but shouldn't the dive recovery flaps on the J and L behave exactly the same?
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