a sad, sad day

[Tupac]

muzik please enlighten us as to your background in aviation.





Oh that's right, you don't have one. You're just another limp dick on the Internet.

[F22RaptorDude]

We seem to be loosing alot of WW2 birds recently... 

[eagl]

Muzik,

You're an idiot. Period...!

+1

[KgB]

Given the obvious evidence of mechanical failure, you're disgusting.

If you don't mind my asking sir, what mechanical failure?

[Tupac]

If you don't my asking sir, what mechanical failure?

Trim tab came off.

[KgB]

Trim tab came off.

And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?

[eagl]

And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?

Depending on the speed and aero setup, oh yea it could, and in a hurry too.  Especially if the stick is ripped out of the pilot's hand subjecting him to enough Gs to cause GLOC.  Now he's gotta wake up first, figure out where he is, who he is, and why that big brown thing covered with people and trees is rushing up at him.

Not saying that's what happened, but trim malfunctions can be a big problem.  The T-37 had a speed restriction of 275kts even thought the aircraft was placarded for over 300, in part because full nose down trim at over 200 kts would give somewhere around 200 lbs of forward stick force, and full up trim at over 250 would instantaneously fail the horizontal stab if the stick was released (or was jerked out of the pilot's hand).  I know one guy who punched out of a T-37 in part due to being unable to control the plane in a vertical dive with full nose-down trim.

[Golfer]

And that should make aircraft uncontrollable?

In an aircraft with a fixed horizontal stabilizer traveling in excess of 400 knots, yes.  The aircraft will fly to its "trimmed" condition which without the tab is going to be closer to 120-150 knots.  This will result in stick forces requiring 200-225lbs per inch nose up as the aircraft hunts for the speed.  Aircraft with movable horizontal stabilizers or simply with jammed trim controls will want to remain trimmed for the speed at which trim control was lost.

Because of this tremendous nose up pitch force, G forces in excess of 10G will be experienced (evidenced by the photographs showing the tailwheel extending due to the G force, which will occur around 9G in a Mustang) which will catch any airman off guard.  Because their body isn't prepared for the instant onset of G forces, the blood immediately leaves their upper body and a blackout will ensue in about a second.  Another factor to consider is even if you were somehow to retain consciousness the G Forces will be pushing you down and forward in the cockpit because the aircraft is also decelerating to get to the neutral trim speed roughly 300 knots below what it's currently flying at.

In other words, the trim tab in a Mustang goes at high speed, the pilot blacks out and you either have a fortunate recoverable situation such as Voodoo in the 1990s or you crash without ever knowing what happened, as likely happened in this case.

[eagl]

Loss or partial loss of a trim tab can also lead to control surface flutter.  But that is often clearly audible to spectators as a loud buzzing and a bang, and may result in the control surface being ripped completely off of the plane well before the crash.  It doesn't sound like that is what happened here.

[Dragon]

Yes. That's the tragedy here. A P-51 was lost.......... 

No.  That is not the tragedy here.  Lives were lost.  An airplane is just a material possession.  Old or new it is JUST a plane.



Oh, muzak is an idiot.

[Ex-jazz]

A very very sad  

Considering that no report for the accident has been filed yet, how can you be so sure that age played no role in it? It was likely mechanical failure as has been speculated due to the video & photo evidence but pilot error is the leading cause of most aircraft crashes and until the accident report has an official stamp on it no one can officially say yey, ney or maybe.

Simple fact is age is certainly an issue in most professional sports auto sports. There is a reason we don't see 70 year old guys driving F-1 cars or in NASCAR, because regardless of pilot capabilities the human body at 70 is not what it was at 20. I'm sure the guy was very fit and quite capable of a pilot, but it's also very reasonable to question age in this and certainly the official investigators will be looking into that as well.

Until the report is filed, claiming age was an issue is just as silly as claiming it wasn't.

Well said.

[Dichotomy]

To Eagle, Golfer, and Widewing,

Thanks for all of the information.  While I hate that I learned it due to something as bad as this incident I am a bit of an information junkie and you three have really helped me understand potential causes to this accident.

 

[KgB]

I had a suspicion that i knew nothing about aviation , except for what could learn from flying cartoon planes. However after reading your replies (thank you gentlemen), I'm certain that i know nothing.  Having said that, not being a pilot and posting judgmental comments is just not wise.

[HB555]

I had a suspicion that i knew nothing about aviation , except for what could learn from flying cartoon planes. However after reading your replies (thank you gentlemen), I'm certain that i know nothing.  Having said that, not being a pilot and posting judgmental comments is just not wise.

Meant as a compliment, I salute you for the above post. Many would not say that aloud.

[hotard]

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10720171/tm.htm

A little more intelligent discussion for the most part than some posts here.
Note the pictures ( very good quality) showing:
1. the missing trim tab.
2. pilot not visible in cockpit.
3. extended tail wheel (due to mechanical failure of up-lock due to g-load?)

Check out the video posted by Corsair Jock on page 3. Shows pretty much the entire event from initial climb to impact, not just the brief  blurs you get in the other vids.

BTW The pilots are instructed in the event of any emergency to climb and turn left (into the race infield).

Based upon the afore mentioned experience years ago from a trim tab faliure, it would seem that a similar chain of events happened, but with the roll, an entirely different outcome.