A tale of two spins

[Traveler]

Hi Traveler,

Apologies once again, I wasn't being clear, I am aware of the .ahf limitations and I wasn't looking at the controls or the control surfaces. I simply assumed you were making the appropriate control inputs. However, even though you were unable to recover I was still expecting to see your aircraft respond in some way to your control commands, but by just watching the aircraft in the spin I couldn't detect any indication that you were making control commands of any kind. That is not what I'm seeing when I do it.

Here is a film where I wait until the aircraft is fully stalled before using the rudder to initiate a right hand spin. I allow the spin to fully develop and when it is fully established I still make no attempt to recover until the altitude hits 3k. I've used the 3k altitude as a marker so that you can see when I begin. Once the altitude hits 3k I initiate a recovery and pull out without using the throttle with a loss of 2k.

http://www.aircombatacademy.com/video/BadboyRHspin.ahf

The only thing I notice that is different in our control setup is that I use some damping on the rudder in order to smooth out my rudder inputs with the intention of helping to avoid spins during combat.

Unfortunately I simply can't get my P-38L to stall more deeply, or spin more permanently than that, it just won't happen for me.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Regards

Badboy

I"ll take a look at it when I get a minute, you can tell somewhat when I'm dong by watching the Needle ball, they do work in the .ahf and you can tell when I apply right rudder and when I apply left rudder in an attempt to stop the rotation.

[Mar]

This thread got me wondering, so I tried a spin recovery in the the 38. The weird thing is, after flying level at 200mph, then jerking full back with full left rudder, waiting for the spin to get settled in so it keeps going when I let go, and then pushing full right rudder, nothing happens. Actually the spin seems to get faster. I can't pull back because the game apparently takes away most of the elevator control. What little bit I can push forward doesn't make a difference for rudder recovery. The same with a right side spin. There were only two ways I could get out of it: aileron in the direction of the spin, or oscillate the little amount of elevator control the game leaves me with in the spin to get the nose bouncing. The 38 J will not recover with aileron only like the L did, I had to get the nose bouncing a little bit. I didn't try the G.

This was with 50% fuel, no external load. It did not matter what altitude, I did all the tests falling from 30k down to 1k.

I'll try again and have a closer look at my controls tomorrow. I also forgot to try without combat trim, but I don't think it's going to make a difference.

I hate the P38.

[Traveler]

This thread got me wondering, so I tried a spin recovery in the the 38. The weird thing is, after flying level at 200mph, then jerking full back with full left rudder, waiting for the spin to get settled in so it keeps going when I let go, and then pushing full right rudder, nothing happens. Actually the spin seems to get faster. I can't pull back because the game apparently takes away most of the elevator control. What little bit I can push forward doesn't make a difference for rudder recovery. The same with a right side spin. There were only two ways I could get out of it: aileron in the direction of the spin, or oscillate the little amount of elevator control the game leaves me with in the spin to get the nose bouncing. The 38 J will not recover with aileron only like the L did, I had to get the nose bouncing a little bit. I didn't try the G.

This was with 50% fuel, no external load. It did not matter what altitude, I did all the tests falling from 30k down to 1k.

I'll try again and have a closer look at my controls tomorrow. I also forgot to try without combat trim, but I don't think it's going to make a difference.

I hate the P38.

The method you are describing for entry into the spin is not the proper procedure for performing a stall, remember first the wing is stalled, then rudder is applied for the direction that you want the aircraft to spin in.

You should start off level with reduced power so that the airspeed slows, you want to enter the stall from a slow flight configuration, No Jerking of the controls.  Slow to about 110 MPH, then raise the nose of the aircraft, power off, and hold the nose above the horizon and wait for the stall to occur, as the stall occurs, press full left or right rudder and hold that rudder position , the aircraft will stall and spin in what ever direction of rudder you are holding.  That the proper method for the stall spin entry.

[BaDkaRmA158Th]

Yeah i think mar's talking about the p-38 ninja star.

[icepac]

Please point out to me where you think I said there was a bug with the Aces High P-38 flight model?  I provided film and I asked for others to comment on what I was experiencing.  I never said that there was a bug.

If you read the original post it states the conditions of my flight.   But so there is no mistake, the aircraft was 75% fuel, 2 1000lbs bombs, and 10 rockets.

I entered a power off stall at 5000 feet.  Spun to the right and was unable to recover using normal spin recovery procedures.  All spins to the left can be recovered from.  

If you spun the p38 with 75% fuel, 2 1000lbs bombs, and 10 rockets............at 5000 feet..............you should have not recovered.............regardl ess of whether right or left rotation.

Consider the fact that it can be recovered from one direction as a gift.

[Mar]

The method you are describing for entry into the spin is not the proper procedure for performing a stall, remember first the wing is stalled, then rudder is applied for the direction that you want the aircraft to spin in.

You should start off level with reduced power so that the airspeed slows, you want to enter the stall from a slow flight configuration, No Jerking of the controls.  Slow to about 110 MPH, then raise the nose of the aircraft, power off, and hold the nose above the horizon and wait for the stall to occur, as the stall occurs, press full left or right rudder and hold that rudder position , the aircraft will stall and spin in what ever direction of rudder you are holding.  That the proper method for the stall spin entry.

Gotcha, I'll give that a shot then.

[colmbo]

Just spent some more time in the TA doing spins in the 38L.

You guys that are able to recover, any chance you're using some aileron in your recovery technique?

If I used the standard spin recovery of throttles idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and forward stick the spin rotation would increase slightly and did not recover from the spin.

If I used the standard anti spin controls PLUS aileron INTO (left spin, left aileron) I got consistent recovery withing 5 or 6 additional turns. (Pro spin aileron makes sense IF adverse yaw is modeled, but what I'm seeing in the spin is a bank away from spin rotation -- once the bank is neutralized with aileron you get immediate recovery)

I'm seeing this with or without bombs loaded, both left and right spins.

Spins were started at 20K, slow deceleration and allowed to go until spin stabilized (3-5 turns) before recovery.  Recovery was from 10 to 13K.

[TequilaChaser]

Just spent some more time in the TA doing spins in the 38L.

You guys that are able to recover, any chance you're using some aileron in your recovery technique?

If I used the standard spin recovery of throttles idle, ailerons neutral, opposite rudder and forward stick the spin rotation would increase slightly and did not recover from the spin.

I myself can not rule out what I had tested before if I had used any aileron unput or not......  I did not film them after 2 or 3  others posted they were able to recover...... at that point it was almost 50 / 50 either some could or some could not......  I can go redo the test again if need be.... if it is necessary to spend more time on this issue

I do think that something or someone is doing something different or settings are possibly different, when I see Delirium post that he had trouble  trying to recover  the right spin ....... but what ever it is I do not know

I use the spin recovery steps in the following order

S - Stick nuetral / Stick push full forward
T - Throttle off
O - Opposite Rudder to counter the Spin direction
P - Pull stick back gradually as speed increases to level out of dive

I have always used this technique for spin recovery for Tail spins / incipient spins........
I understand that an incipient spin is not what one would call a "developed spin"......... it is a spin in the first 1 to 2 rotations

and was figuring that is why Badboy posted he let his test drop 2 K to get a fully developed spin going so as their was no confusion  of his test data / film

edit:  I should note that on 1 or 2 of my tests for the Right Spin recovery, that it seemed to take a few seconds longer to gain recovery.......... the Left Spin Recovery recovered much more quickly than the right direction......... but it was a matter of seconds ...... I would say under 12 or 10 seconds difference....

hope this helps

TC

[hitech]

The only thing I see as strange is the different recovery left or right.

There are only 3 possibilities I can think of that would cause this. So we will test the left right abnormality.

1. Controller issue.
2. Fuel burned from 1 tank.
3. A typo/bug in the p38 model.

HiTech

[colmbo]

The only thing I see as strange is the different recovery left or right.

I see no difference left or right.

There are only 3 possibilities I can think of that would cause this. So we will test the left right abnormality.

1. Controller issue.
2. Fuel burned from 1 tank.
3. A typo/bug in the p38 model.

The controller seems okay, I'm not seeing any difference in response left or right.

For my test I was in the TA and using the 20k field for takeoff...flight less than two minutes so shouldn't be a fuel imbalance issue.

Only you can look at the code. <G>

Now a question for you Hitech.  As I posted earlier I notice that the in-cockpit stick moves forward as the spin develops and the elevator moves to a down position.  What's up with that?  I noticed this in both the P38 and P40.

HiTech
[/quote]

[Delirium]

1. Controller issue.
2. Fuel burned from 1 tank.
3. A typo/bug in the p38 model.

If you're going to change anything, could you address the lack of weight the Christmas Tree rails (when empty) have on the P38L? Those rails have to weigh at least 1 lb a piece...

edit: damn typo

[hitech]

Now a question for you Hitech.  As I posted earlier I notice that the in-cockpit stick moves forward as the spin develops and the elevator moves to a down position.  What's up with that?  I noticed this in both the P38 and P40.

It turned out to be a graphic display issue. It doesn't/didn't effect the flight model, but I fixed it for the next release.

HiTech

[Traveler]

It turned out to be a graphic display issue. It doesn't/didn't effect the flight model, but I fixed it for the next release.

HiTech

What about the original post?  I’ve calibrated and re-calibrated my controls.   I still can’t stop the spin rotation using rudder alone to stop the spin to the right.    Holding  full left rudder in a spin to the right  appears to have no impact.

[hitech]

What about the original post?  I’ve calibrated and re-calibrated my controls.   I still can’t stop the spin rotation using rudder alone to stop the spin to the right.    Holding  full left rudder in a spin to the right  appears to have no impact.

Traveler: I have had trouble deciphering this thread I believe everyone except you say they can recover normally. And by rudder alone do you mean rudder and no elevator? Was the spin entry the same both ways?

So I'm confused what the issue is, have you tried the same procedure I.E. start spin left, and then reverse to the right. Along with start spin right and then reverse to the left?

As I have said above, there should be no difference left and right. I just don't want to go on a wild goose chase before you have tested all conditions.

HiTech

[colmbo]

Traveler: I have had trouble deciphering this thread I believe everyone except you say they can recover normally. And by rudder alone do you mean rudder and no elevator? Was the spin entry the same both ways?

I'm not seeing a normal recovery ie:  opposite rudder and forward stick stopping the spin -- steady state all the way to impact.

I can recover by either bringing the power up on one side to stop rotation OR

I can use aileron into/pro spin with opposite rudder and forward stick to recover.