Author Topic: How do you approach a Spit?  (Read 7657 times)

Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2012, 05:12:26 PM »
Well, if the plane doesn't matter, why can't you out flat-turn that Zeke if you're good enough?  The plane dictates the choices you have to make.  Some planes have more options than others.  That's all I'm saying.


I don't recall saying that the plane doesn't matter but you seem to be paraphrasing my actual point as if I disagree with myself.  :headscratch:

Co-E with a P47-D11 vs Spit 16 at 10k, unmolested 1v1 nose on standard cold merge 'duel'.  Pilots of identical skill and familiarity with their plane.  What can the jug do in that situation other than bleed its E and eventually die?


The Spitfire has a much harder time slowing down so the Jug sets up an overshoot and rails the Spit with 8 50's. What was an obvious disadvantage to you is used to advantage to win the fight.

Offline Wiley

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2012, 05:24:08 PM »
Quote
The Spitfire has a much harder time slowing down so the Jug sets up an overshoot and rails the Spit with 8 50's. What was an obvious disadvantage to you is used to advantage to win the fight.

If the spit is actually trying to slow down, the jug can still slow down faster?  Hmp.  I've never noticed it.  I'll bear that in mind.  Normally if I start trying to dump E and turn with a Spit he bleeds his E as necessary and uses his ability to regain E to lag turns me until I have nowhere to go.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline uptown

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2012, 05:24:48 PM »


Co-E with a P47-D11 vs Spit 16 at 10k, unmolested 1v1 nose on standard cold merge 'duel'.  Pilots of identical skill and familiarity with their plane.  What can the jug do in that situation other than bleed its E and eventually die?

Wiley.
The spixteen has a HUGE  advantage over the D11. Zoom him while avoiding the ho shots and maybe catch him with a high or low yoyo. If need be extend away and get him above the cloud layer so you have more room to work. Patience and smart flying usually pays off. Most spits get their kills by front shots after they turn back into you. Expect that and adjust you moves accordingly.
Lighten up Francis

Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2012, 05:34:49 PM »
If the spit is actually trying to slow down, the jug can still slow down faster?  Hmp.  I've never noticed it.  I'll bear that in mind.  Normally if I start trying to dump E and turn with a Spit he bleeds his E as necessary and uses his ability to regain E to lag turns me until I have nowhere to go.

Wiley.

Try describing that fight without talking about E. It might clarify the issues.

The spixteen has a HUGE  advantage over the D11. Zoom him while avoiding the ho shots and maybe catch him with a high or low yoyo. If need be extend away and get him above the cloud layer so you have more room to work. Patience and smart flying usually pays off. Most spits get their kills by front shots after they turn back into you. Expect that and adjust you moves accordingly.

How does a D-11 out zoom a co-E Spit16?



Offline Bruv119

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2012, 05:37:04 PM »
Spit 16's are usually flown by bad sticks so you can most likely get them slow and out turn them with no less than half the plane set.

If it's an 8 or 9 then you better have a good eye for what is going on and their energy state.   If the Spit pilot is super aggressive you need to double bluff them and store more energy on the second merge or spiral climb so they go nose up  and then stall it once you have bled them out. Ki84 / p38 / 109k4 are all perfect for this.  

Spit 5 's  extend and run away to bnz unless your in a zero / brew or other better turning aircraft.

  
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Offline ink

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2012, 05:43:50 PM »
Are you sure the guy wasn't afk? ;)  As I stated, I'd be pretty shocked if it was done by flat turning, and I didn't say it was completely impossible, only that you're not going to get many guys like that.

Of course, but in fights between relatively equal average pilots, plane makes a difference.

Wiley.

 :rofl

no just a total noob, and I used some vert.....only noobs flat turn without adding some vert or dive.

and yes when it comes to equal pilots that is when the plane has more say in the out come. the closer in skill the pilots are the more the plane effects the out come.

equal pilots same plane its the one that makes a mistake first.....that is to say if they are equal in all aspects of dog fighting.

FLS good points, can you explain why the JUG slows down faster? my guess is the weight, same reason why it is harder to regain lost E. :headscratch:


these are what I find the most important to winning a duel

1st-AIM
2nd-knowledge of and ability, too utilize planes full potential  
3rd-ability to judge E states
4th-proper timing of maneuvers
5th-SA

SA Blankets 3-4

Offline Wiley

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2012, 05:58:19 PM »
Try describing that fight without talking about E. It might clarify the issues.

Of course it's all situational, but in broad terms to try to force the overshoot, I'd be pulling higher G's for turns, using rudder to create drag, going nose high where possible in the scissors, deploying flaps as I'm able.  Usually at some point in this unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.

I think I maybe need to revisit my tactics against Spits, as my abilities have changed a fair bit since I thought about it analytically.

Wiley.
If you think you are having a 1v1 in the Main Arena, your SA has failed you.

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Offline uptown

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2012, 06:01:02 PM »
Try describing that fight without talking about E. It might clarify the issues.

How does a D-11 out zoom a co-E Spit16?



:headscratch: oh great ...i have to debate flying with a trainer. I should probably not do this  :lol

anyhoo what i mean is seeing as how i'm of the opinion that jugs out dive spits, I would go nose down just enough to keep him interested and slowly go back up until I had some kind of advantage under or above him. Granted I don't fly the D11 but rather looking at this problem from the seat of a 51.
Am I wrong into thinking a P47 can dive away, extend 2or3k and come back with just as much alt and speed as the spit? This is an interesting matchup but I just can't accept that the jug has no other options but die to a co-alt spixteen. Maybe this is why I die alot ........
Lighten up Francis

Offline ink

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2012, 06:03:11 PM »
Of course it's all situational, but in broad terms to try to force the overshoot, I'd be pulling higher G's for turns, using rudder to create drag, going nose high where possible in the scissors, deploying flaps as I'm able.  Usually at some point in this unless the spit driver makes a mistake he uses his climb rate to get above me and it's all downhill from there.

I think I maybe need to revisit my tactics against Spits, as my abilities have changed a fair bit since I thought about it analytically.

Wiley.


hey man the best way to learn is to do....join up with the DFC ladder we start a new season soon, some of the best fights are waiting for ya :aok

all the thinking wont amount to crap if you don't put it into practice.

 

Offline Bruv119

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2012, 06:06:31 PM »
hey man the best way to learn is to do....join up with the DFC ladder we start a new season soon, some of the best fights are waiting for ya :aok

all the thinking wont amount to crap if you don't put it into practice.

 

+1

Textbooks are for nerds!   practice what you preach one must! 
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Offline ink

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2012, 06:12:13 PM »
+1

Textbooks are for nerds!   practice what you preach one must! 

good idea.....time to kill some red guys :t

Offline Big Rat

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2012, 06:13:14 PM »
Spits have inherent weaknesses, but they are not easily exploited.   The two main weaknesses (actually they go together) I try to exploit are, their lack of a very usefull flap setting, and their inability to drop speed very fast becouse of this.  I'm a hog guy, so my aircraft excells at their weaknesses, and their strengths are normally my weaknesses. I'll normally work on dragging a spit into any sort of scissors or stall fighting contest (my strengths), especially the later models, if I can't gain the advanatage otherwise.  The key is to be very aggressive early and kill them before they get the chance to use thier superior E-building ability against you and get on top of the fight.  Once they get the high ground a hog is in trouble.  Of course I'm only going to try and work this angle if I can't gain the high ground early to start with.  If no advantage can be gained on the first couple merges it normally ends up as a stall fight or rolling scissors anyway.  The key is to keep them defensive enough that they don't have time to build up enough E to get back above you once the fight gets slow.  A good spit pilot works for the opposite, trying not to get tied down and using it's superior E building to get above the fight, where a hog has a hard time building E quickly, so it's always trying to play catch up to the spits E state once the spit gets a little room to extend.  The hog has the E building disadvantage against a lot of planes in the plane set, this is why I spend so much time with my students working to gain the high ground early in their fights.  This is especially true against planes like the spit and 109 series which have very good E building abilities.  

 :salute
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Offline FLS

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2012, 06:27:07 PM »
Ink the Jug just has more drag, I believe both parasitic and induced, than the Spitfire so if you cut power and maneuver with both the Jug slows down faster.

It's also heavier but the key difference is the greater excess power of the Spitfire which gives it better acceleration, a better climb rate, and better turn performance. Weight by itself is not a problem as long as you have the power to move it.

Uptown I just thought you missed the co-E part, other than that I agree with you.

Wiley when we talk about energy it's usually speed and altitude even though mass and fuel are also included. Referring to E in a general fashion does not help us compare the specific aircraft attributes that a pilot has to keep in mind. Hence my earlier statement that comparing specific attributes points to the tactics you need to use.

Offline clerick

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2012, 06:39:12 PM »
FLS good points, can you explain why the JUG slows down faster? my guess is the weight, same reason why it is harder to regain lost E. 

Weight directly affect momentum which is an objects ability to resist changes in velocity. Think of it this way, heavy is hard to get going but once it gets going she don't wanna stop. The jug just suffers from serious drag, if it weren't for the weight it would hemmorage E instead of just bleed it.

Offline Bruv119

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Re: How do you approach a Spit?
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2012, 06:40:50 PM »
FLS  wouldn't the D11  have a much smaller turning circle than the 16 with all the flaps out?   
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