Author Topic: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)  (Read 25025 times)

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2012, 11:11:01 AM »
squad sweeps in mossies inevitably start off with at least one slewing off the runway into a field gun or hangar, cracks me up every time :D
The mossie is one of the planes that really feels the secondary effects. There is a huge difference between stalling in a right hand or left a hand turn. From a right hand spin I can come out at will. From a left hand spin I will come out only if god wills it.

Try also to fly level and then pull/push the stick while watching the ball. It will swing to one side when you pull and the other when you push. I feel this is much more noticeable in the mossie than in most other planes. Maybe the Spit 14 suffers even more, but I have too little experience with it to tell.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline xJUGGOx

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 90
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #61 on: September 12, 2012, 10:09:43 AM »
I have actually been saying to my squad mates that she has been feeling sluggish in turns and etc for about three months now. I just read some info on the-4 showing it to have stall speed of 71.4 mph full flaps at sea level. I think the -1s were around 83 mph or so for the same.  It also shows that all the F4Us had normal power military power and combat power what do we have in here? When I try to get low and slow (which is stupid to do) to push my flight envelope I notice she is all squirmy and I find myself using a lot of rudder to keep my nose in front. When I take off from the cv I do use 6 notches of elevator and 2 notches of flaps with a notch of rudder to take off easier like the video.  For those that don't know about the landing gears, the were used for dive bombing to be able to extend up to 350mph which slowed them down but helped stabilize your weapon platform. I'm sure most fold know this already but I thought I would just throw it out there.
CO
VMF-222 ~Flying Deuces~
'Ain't No Rules In a Knife Fight'
http://www.vmf-222.com/

Offline Nath[BDP]

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1267
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #62 on: September 12, 2012, 04:04:48 PM »
Upon returning in July after last playing AH in late 2005, I've really been amazed at the increase in low speed handling stability with flaps deployed for planes such as the 109, F4U, P47 and perhaps most remarkably the La 7.  From what I've gathered this occurred with the 2.07 patch.  FWIW the aircraft are easier to fly and are more forgiving.  The 190's still seem stuck in Aces High I while similar heavy planes stall at lower speeds and have more useful flaps.

My knowledge of aviation is limited to history and aircraft, and I really know nothing of physics.  But I did fly AH for a long time and think I developed a good sense for how the aircraft handle at their limits in the game.  

It is amazing to me to see La7s and F4Us, and K4s flying around with full flaps deployed, at angles approaching huge air brakes, in zoom climbs with very little effect on deceleration.   I've also seen the introduction of some pretty wonky maneuvers where the plane can be kicked around almost 200 degrees laterally, essentially leaving the flight envelope, and then returning to normal flight without any ill effects.  The 109s do this without the greatest risk of entering a spin (almost impossible), but it's also doable in the Ki84, La7 and late P47s.  Tactically this move has very limited use but it can be used to force an overshoot and reestablish positional parity.  I would love to hear from more knowledgeable folks if these moves have any basis in reality, because it certainly isn't ACM.    
++Blue Knights++
vocalist of the year


Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #63 on: September 12, 2012, 05:55:59 PM »
Saw a new one last night. K4 with full flaps out behind my ponyD with full flaps just above falling out of the sky, comes to what looks like a full stop. Then suddenly point it's nose straight up with full flaps out and I guess uses WEP to climb straight up with full flaps out. Soppose from his client viewpoint he was avoiding colliding with my rear. It was probably the internet but, one moment the K4 came to almost a dead stand still. Then the next moment it's nose pivots 90 degrees vertical and climbs straight up like a helecopter with it's flaps full out.

Guess I witnessed a secret weapon of the Luft......... :)

A BfHarrier.......... :noid
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline pervert

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #64 on: September 12, 2012, 08:29:36 PM »
I would leave record on and review stuff like that, most likely what you thought happened didnt bustr. That being said something like a k4 has a huge engine and light airframe once the noses arw pointed up the pony will not win the thrust battle.

Offline Ardy123

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3417
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #65 on: September 12, 2012, 08:45:39 PM »
I have not flown a single real ww2 airplane and if I did I would not attempt any of the 'trick moves' one can do in AH, but I suspect that most all planes post stall behavior is unrealistic. HTC can verify this, but I believe the game works by interpolating on statically generated tables. Tables which are generally complied from mathematical models simulating 'normal' airflow conditions (ie not post stall, not flying/falling backwards on your tail, etc...)
Yeah, that's right, you just got your rear handed to you by a fuggly puppet!
==Army of Muppets==
(Bunnies)

Offline skittish

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 16
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #66 on: September 12, 2012, 09:41:08 PM »
One of the argument is it shouldn't handle that well in slow speeds. We have the advantage that our WW2 real life pilots didn't have. If we die making a mistake we can reup. Which allows us the chance to learn how to stall fight. I guarantee you half the stuff the pilots try in AH2 would not have been performed in real life. We have the ability to try something new and if it works use it if not try something else
VMF-222

Offline Butcher

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5323
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2012, 12:07:47 AM »
One of the argument is it shouldn't handle that well in slow speeds. We have the advantage that our WW2 real life pilots didn't have. If we die making a mistake we can reup. Which allows us the chance to learn how to stall fight. I guarantee you half the stuff the pilots try in AH2 would not have been performed in real life. We have the ability to try something new and if it works use it if not try something else

There is a major difference between what we do in a simulator (this game) vs what real pilots did - 80% that play this game will never understand that, rather they do not even care - this is a video game.

Most of the stuff in Aces High did not have live bullets flying at them - there is NO comparison period. Not going to bother giving my opinion on this because I wasn't there.
JG 52

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2012, 07:49:33 AM »
The Sukhoi 26 loaded weight is 2,600 lb and has a 360 hp engine. Or in other words a power loading of 0.14 hp per lb.

The Bf 109K's loaded weight is 7,400 lb and has a 1,800 hp engine. A power loading of 0.24 hp per lb; almost twice that of one of the world's best aerobatics aircraft.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcP2G93-ZSA&feature=player_detailpage#t=47s


If the Su-26 can hang on it's prop like that then the 109 can do it even better and for longer. I doubt anyone would dare to do it in R/L though, but that's besides the point.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12397
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2012, 09:51:44 AM »
I have not flown a single real ww2 airplane and if I did I would not attempt any of the 'trick moves' one can do in AH, but I suspect that most all planes post stall behavior is unrealistic. HTC can verify this, but I believe the game works by interpolating on statically generated tables. Tables which are generally complied from mathematical models simulating 'normal' airflow conditions (ie not post stall, not flying/falling backwards on your tail, etc...)


You are incorrect, AH models the complete flight envelope and not just 'normal' airflow conditions.

HiTech

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2012, 10:44:05 AM »
In film viewer, can we get get "g loading" and "plane weight" included in the two blank columns right next to the displays for speed and altitude?

It would go a long way toward understanding what really happened the your filmed sortie you are watching while also quelling many a cheating accusation.

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12397
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2012, 11:04:36 AM »
In film viewer, can we get get "g loading" and "plane weight" included in the two blank columns right next to the displays for speed and altitude?

It would go a long way toward understanding what really happened the your filmed sortie you are watching while also quelling many a cheating accusation.

No, because your client does not have that information on other planes.

But also your assumption is incorrect, because amazingly anytime someone makes a "Amazing flight characteristic" accusation, they never seem to have a film to prove the accusation.

HiTech

Offline Charge

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3414
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2012, 11:27:29 AM »
That is simple to avoid. My settings run film every time so it is easy to save a film if I see anything peculiar. I recommend you people who see these things more than others do the same.

Also run the "trail" so you can see the enemy's actual movement relative to you.



"If the Su-26 can hang on it's prop like that then the 109 can do it even better and for longer."

It was actually done, to some degree. Finnish test pilot Pekka Kokko claimed that he flew a G2 in a 60 deg nose up without losing altitude. Or can we call that "flying" anymore or rather a controlled stall...  ;)

-C+
"When you wish upon a falling star, your dreams can come true. Unless it's really a giant meteor hurtling to the earth which will destroy all life. Then you're pretty much screwed no matter what you wish for. Unless of course, it's death by meteorite."

Offline titanic3

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4235
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2012, 11:30:15 AM »
I pulled off some weird as hell nose up stall in a 2 v 1 the other day with a K4. From my cockpit, it was like I literally pointed the nose up, did mutiple 360s in a spin, and dropped back down on the guy chasing me. The whole thing was maybe 5 seconds and both me and the other guy was baffled. I'll post the film once I get home.

I had around 50 fuel, going 200mph and about 200ft off the ground.

  the game is concentrated on combat, not on shaking the screen.

semp

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6972
Re: F4U turn performance, flaps, the real plane, etc (discussion)
« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2012, 01:24:48 PM »
No, because your client does not have that information on other planes.

But also your assumption is incorrect, because amazingly anytime someone makes a "Amazing flight characteristic" accusation, they never seem to have a film to prove the accusation.

HiTech


I have only ever sent in two films.

Both "dog" and "ice", who were the stars of each film were later banned at warbirds.

If you ever get a film from me, it will be pretty obvious something is wrong.


Can we get the g loading and plane weight displayed for our own plane in the film?