30mm is buggy

[The Fugitive]

I think the cheesy puffs and other "animations" are in the "general" area of the hits/ The hits are registered much more accurately. Eye candy is just that, eye candy. 

[Copprhed]

I think the cheesy puffs and other "animations" are in the "general" area of the hits/ The hits are registered much more accurately. Eye candy is just that, eye candy.

How dare you burst my illusion!

[Wiley]

I think the cheesy puffs and other "animations" are in the "general" area of the hits/ The hits are registered much more accurately. Eye candy is just that, eye candy.

Not necessarily saying you're wrong, but that doesn't really sound right to me.  Hit sprites on the ground it looks to me like they hit where the bullet hits as far as I can tell.  Wouldn't the same apply to an aircraft?

I'd expect the cheesy poof to be more or less centered on the bullet impact.

Wiley.

[FBKampfer]

Stats can't cover everything. It would only reflect a sweeping, global problem. If the 30mm were to be just buggy under certain rare conditions, or for a few individual  computers, it would drown in the noise of the data, so to speak.
Combining my own experience as a heavy tater user and my stats I just can say with some authority (snicker) that there is no sweeping global problem, but that does not mean there's none at all.
That's what films are for.

I don't question that the MK 108 may be buggy under certain conditions. But, if it is not rare, as many assert (witness the cries of "tater is unusable! I can't fly the K4 any more!), then it *would* show up in a statistical analysis.

I also make very heavy use of the K4, and also have not witnessed any problems that cannot be explained. Because of this, I will continue to operate on the assumption that my 30mm's will cause catastrophic damage to aircraft when properly placed. That I took out my first B-29 in the game yesterday with a quick burst from the 30mm, and finished the other two off in short order, did nothing to diminish my confidence in the weapon.

And if my (admittedly limited) knowledge of how the game works, wouldn't the "bugs"  be resultant from either corrupted code, anomalous interactions

[Latrobe]

Are you sure you fired your secondary weapon, as your primary is the MG.  Cannot open anything at mediafire for security reasons.  It would not help anyway as we would need the original film so we have our tools to access exactly what was fired and what was hit.

Right now, the only complaint I see is you want the damage model to be more precise in what is graphically depicted.  Without the original film, that is all that can be surmised.

Here you go, full film linked below. I had forgotten you could actually link films in this forum. 

[The Fugitive]

Not necessarily saying you're wrong, but that doesn't really sound right to me.  Hit sprites on the ground it looks to me like they hit where the bullet hits as far as I can tell.  Wouldn't the same apply to an aircraft?

I'd expect the cheesy poof to be more or less centered on the bullet impact.

Wiley.

I seem to remember someone from HTC saying that, but I don't remember who or in what context, however Skuzzy said this...

Are you sure you fired your secondary weapon, as your primary is the MG.  Cannot open anything at mediafire for security reasons.  It would not help anyway as we would need the original film so we have our tools to access exactly what was fired and what was hit.

Right now, the only complaint I see is you want the damage model to be more precise in what is graphically depicted.  Without the original film, that is all that can be surmised.

To me that seems to mean that it is not precise as it is, IF there is more room to make it MORE precise. I'm not trying to put words into Skuzzy post here, but the only reason I did post what I said was because Skuzzy posted that. Like I said it was some time ago that I read it and Im not sure who posted it, nor the context. Once someone pointed out to me how all I hit was their wing and showed me a screen shot of all the holes in his wing. The bullet holes are just an overlay layer with the damage graphics on it. Either that or everytime some clown blows a hole in my canopy they all seem to hit the same spot!

Take it as you will.

It's possible that there is some glitch with the 30mm, after all it's millions of lines of coad, even Hitech can hit a key or two wrong once in a while. But, I don't really think there is an issue. Some people get all pumped up and figure that a single cheesy puff should be enough and that their aim could never be off.  I miss just as well with the 30 as I do with 50's or 20's, it's all the same to me.

[Wiley]

To me that seems to mean that it is not precise as it is, IF there is more room to make it MORE precise. I'm not trying to put words into Skuzzy post here, but the only reason I did post what I said was because Skuzzy posted that. Like I said it was some time ago that I read it and Im not sure who posted it, nor the context. Once someone pointed out to me how all I hit was their wing and showed me a screen shot of all the holes in his wing. The bullet holes are just an overlay layer with the damage graphics on it. Either that or everytime some clown blows a hole in my canopy they all seem to hit the same spot!

Take it as you will.

Exactly, but that's the effects of your gunnery on his FE, not your gunnery on your target.  The damage shown on a plane is indeed just a skin that only means that area has been pinged.  You won't see bullet holes after the fact where you hit, you'll just see the damage skin with the bullet holes in the same spots every time.  But as far as I can tell, where you see your bullets strike at the time or on film is where the games count your bullets striking.  Now with something the size of a cheesy poof, perhaps it's more difficult to see precisely where it hits, I don't know.  I very rarely go over my films in that fine of detail.

It's possible that there is some glitch with the 30mm, after all it's millions of lines of coad, even Hitech can hit a key or two wrong once in a while. But, I don't really think there is an issue. Some people get all pumped up and figure that a single cheesy puff should be enough and that their aim could never be off.  I miss just as well with the 30 as I do with 50's or 20's, it's all the same to me.

I haven't noticed anything too far out of line with it.  I think when they split the Hstabs a few years ago it really put a dent in what a 30mm will do to the tail of a plane, as previous to that it would take the whole hstab off, plane is uncontrollable, plane died.  With the split Hstab, most of the time only one side will die from a single tater, and that results in a lot of planes that are still airworthy that weren't before that change.

*shrug* Maybe after FSO I'll take a peek at Dolby's film to try to see what he's talking about.

Wiley.

[icepac]

Six hits on the nose of a KI84 and the engine kept running.

[Wiley]

Watched the film.  Looked to me like a singleton 30mm hit the right wingroot on the first pass you got, then on the MGs and cannon pass around the 7 min mark, bunch of .50s, and single tater near the tail...

Looks like maybe the tail hit hit the fuselage, not the stabs.  Surprised nothing fell off on either of those passes though.

Wiley.

[The Fugitive]

Exactly, but that's the effects of your gunnery on his FE, not your gunnery on your target.  The damage shown on a plane is indeed just a skin that only means that area has been pinged.  You won't see bullet holes after the fact where you hit, you'll just see the damage skin with the bullet holes in the same spots every time.  But as far as I can tell, where you see your bullets strike at the time or on film is where the games count your bullets striking.  Now with something the size of a cheesy poof, perhaps it's more difficult to see precisely where it hits, I don't know.  I very rarely go over my films in that fine of detail.

I haven't noticed anything too far out of line with it.  I think when they split the Hstabs a few years ago it really put a dent in what a 30mm will do to the tail of a plane, as previous to that it would take the whole hstab off, plane is uncontrollable, plane died.  With the split Hstab, most of the time only one side will die from a single tater, and that results in a lot of planes that are still airworthy that weren't before that change.

*shrug* Maybe after FSO I'll take a peek at Dolby's film to try to see what he's talking about.

Wiley.

NO, we are only talking of a graphic overlay here. The graphic, like all others is just another layer that is thrown up on YOUR screen to give you a visual indication of a hit. With the hit sprites I think they try to get them a bit closer, but I don't think they are accurate and can be used as "See, I hit you right there!". The only way to know for sure "where" the hit was registered is for HTC to their tools to check the original film.

Six hits on the nose of a KI84 and the engine kept running.

It only LOOKS like you hit there. Only HTC can tell for sure.

Remember the graphics of what hits there are is nothing more than eye candy. Whats important is the data that is in the packet that is sent to the other guys computer letting it know where you scored hit and what parts should fall off.

[icepac]

Not talking about the film but rather what I saw live at the time.

If what we see and what really happens is as far off as you mention, then nobody would be flying this sim.

[The Fugitive]

Not talking about the film but rather what I saw live at the time.

If what we see and what really happens is as far off as you mention, then nobody would be flying this sim.

Again, what you see on your screen is only graphics. The data is what is important and makes the game consistent across the board for everyone.

[Wiley]

NO, we are only talking of a graphic overlay here. The graphic, like all others is just another layer that is thrown up on YOUR screen to give you a visual indication of a hit. With the hit sprites I think they try to get them a bit closer, but I don't think they are accurate and can be used as "See, I hit you right there!".

You're right on it showing 'damage' graphics, the bullet holes on the skin afterwards, but I think you're wrong about hit sprites.

Strafe a ground target.  Watch the hit sprites.  You can follow a tracer from muzzle to dirt.  It's an effect the game throws up on impact.  Fire one tracer at a tank from the ground.  You can follow it from muzzle to impact.

Put another way- Why on earth would the code know exactly where the bullet hit on your FE, have the exact location available to it to display the hit sprite, but do more calculation work to randomize it?

What you can't see is what effect the bullet had, explosion damage on the vehicle and how much damage was actually counted, and that's why they'd be interested in the film.

The only way to know for sure "where" the hit was registered is for HTC to their tools to check the original film.

It only LOOKS like you hit there. Only HTC can tell for sure.

I don't think that's right on film of your own gunnery taken from your computer.  Anybody else's gunnery on your FE is a complete approximation for sure.

Remember the graphics of what hits there are is nothing more than eye candy. Whats important is the data that is in the packet that is sent to the other guys computer letting it know where you scored hit and what parts should fall off.

Which was calculated on your FE, and displayed.

Wiley.

[Lucifer]

11:11 : 3x30 mm hits on Bomber 1
13:09: 4x30 mm hits on same bomber !

7xdirect 30mm hits on same Lancaster...LoL

Come on... He's still flying...!(not to mention the 20mm impacts who (again) seems to be the only thing doing dmg(again) in this film...)

[Drane]

KI-67 takes a bunch of 30mm/20mm hits from my plane and keeps flying. Counted 7 cheese puffs in film.

When the left engine was struck with a 30mm the right engine began smoking.

4 30mm to the tail with no apparent damage
2 30mm to left aileron
1 30mm to left engine