Author Topic: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review  (Read 8593 times)

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2016, 05:09:40 PM »
The lift vector is negative equal to the mass of the plane sitting on the ground not moving.  If the lift vector is positive the object goes up.

A plane in a dive will have a negative lift vector as well.

Keep in mind vectors represent the forces acting on an object.  Adding a name like "Lift" to a vector gave it a false definition of always being positive of always being positive.

A plane can be in an "unloaded" zero G dive, the same way it could be in an unloaded zero g climb....or sometimes referred to as a zoom climb....either way the lift vector would still be the same

Hate to answer FLS's question that he asked you, but since you didn't....the lift vector would be almost identical whether the plane was in level flight or sitting on the runway....as has been mentioned numerous times already before...the lift vector runs straight line up through the canopy, regardless what ever direction the plane is pointing....you roll,climb,dive etc to point your lift vector the direction you are wanting to fly....

Hope this helps

TC
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Offline Kingpin

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2016, 05:42:53 PM »
As an example, a plane is going straight and level has zero lift vector.  That is. the plane has no force to make it go up.

Strictly speaking, an aircraft does still has a positive lift vector when it is flying level.  The lift force vector is simply negating the effect of the gravity/weight vector. Just because the net effect of those two vectors is zero (level flight), it doesn't change the value of the vectors themselves.  Otherwise, to say there is zero lift in level flight would also be to say there is no gravity, which is not true.



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« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 06:01:24 PM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline Kingpin

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2016, 05:57:16 PM »
So why is understanding and visualizing your lift vector important?  Because you roll your lift vector to where you want to go when you turn. To turn under the nose of your enemy (to avoid a shot or force an overshoot) you roll your lift vector under the enemy and pull to make your turn.  When you think of turning in terms of lift vector placement, it simplifies maneuvers and makes them applicable in a variety of geometries.

I believe something was mentioned in this discussion that to avoid a shot or force an overshoot you "make a nose low turn".   However, this statement is not entirely accurate.  You can pass under the nose of your enemy (avoiding a shot and/or forcing an overshoot) while making a nose-high turn, provided your lift vector is still under your opponent.  The geometry of the fight matters.  For example, in a vertical scissors where you are both climbing (nose up), you can can still roll your lift vector under your opponent to turn under their nose and still be in a nose-up attitude.  In fact, this can be advantageous -- by being nose-up you are decelerating.  If your opponent pushes his nose down to force the crossing shot, the speed differential may force an overshoot and a possible reversal.

Correct lift vector placement is a simple but widely applicable concept. Most turn-fights are largely about lift vector placement and E-management.  If you understand and think in those two terms, everything can become easier.  That is why trainers tend to talk in simplified terms, like lift vector, instead of focusing on a set "maneuvers" (i.e. nose low turn) -- this is not to be "technical", but quite the opposite: to simplify things.

When I was less experienced, I used to think of most fights as being about maintaining speed and using the right maneuvers.  Now I tend to think of many fights as maintaining the right lift vector placement and using the right speed.

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2016, 06:48:36 PM by Kingpin »
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline LCADolby

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2016, 05:57:35 PM »
See, look at what you have done Puma, this is all your fault!  :old:
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Offline morfiend

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2016, 06:04:49 PM »
See, look at what you have done Puma, this is all your fault!  :old:

  Ya shame on him for starting a discussion and having a couple of flight terms defined!

  I'm almost positive Puma has forgotten more about flying than I'll ever know,thats why I tend to stick to basics,teach BFM and if I think the player is ready work on merges!


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Offline Vudak

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2016, 06:06:27 PM »
Yeah, and it couldn't possibly have been done in any other way, whatsoever.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2016, 06:42:20 PM »
Yeah, and it couldn't possibly have been done in any other way, whatsoever.


 I'm not quite sure where you are going with this or what you think could have been done differently.  All I read was a couple of questions asked looking for an explanation.

 That said I suppose you are correct,it could have been done differently,I'm just not sure how exactly?


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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2016, 09:19:44 PM »
Yeah, and it couldn't possibly have been done in any other way, whatsoever.

Sure he could have called out the player for not knowing what he is talking about, but instead he asked a few question to verify whether the player knew what he was talking about.

Discussions like these can easily be filled with miss-information due to players "thinking" they know what they are talking about and spewing incorrect information.

I for one am happy to see terms defined so EVERYONE is on the same page, we all learn, and like the OP said, we all have more fun fights.

Offline JOACH1M

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2016, 10:49:17 PM »
Omg, this is a game people.


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Offline JunkyII

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2016, 11:54:31 PM »
Kingpin,
You say you want to angle your lift vector underneath your opponent? In the vertical scissors I was trying to put my lift vector toward the side the other plane was rolling. In rolling scissors I try to put my lift vector behind my opponent. This was how I was "trained" (More like getting beat up in the DA and getting told what I should be doing)....

Is this wrong?
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Offline Randy1

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2016, 05:34:39 AM »


...Hate to answer FLS's question that he asked you, but since you didn't....

Hope this helps

TC
I did answer his question.   

I was trying to explain the source of the term "Lift Vector".  That is what confused y'all.

Offline TequilaChaser

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2016, 06:03:00 AM »
I did answer his question.   

I was trying to explain the source of the term "Lift Vector".  That is what confused y'all.

I understand the term "vector" and how it is used in mathematics, well more so how it is used or applied in architecture/using AutoCAD (edit: I need to add that I am not an Architect, I used to calculate and design HVAC-R systems using AutoCAD and using ...no need for a long diatribe)

I also understand the term "Lift vector" and how it is used in relation to flight dynamics

You, in my observation of your posts and explanations, you are getting the 2 terms confused/or mixing them together, when they shouldn't be...

The term "vector" can be applied/used in a number of different things.....ie: what's your vector, Victor?

TC
« Last Edit: February 25, 2016, 06:11:41 AM by TequilaChaser »
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Drano

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2016, 07:32:08 AM »



You, in my observation of your posts and explanations, you are getting the 2 terms confused/or mixing them together, when they shouldn't be...


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Offline FLS

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2016, 11:35:04 AM »
I did answer his question.   

I was trying to explain the source of the term "Lift Vector".  That is what confused y'all.

I think you're confusing the motion of the airframe with the force and direction of the lift production.

Offline Puma44

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Re: P38J vs P51B MA 1v1 Flight Review
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2016, 11:35:23 AM »
See, look at what you have done Puma, this is all your fault!  :old:

I'm so sad  :D



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