Author Topic: still settling in  (Read 7794 times)

Offline Pudgie

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #45 on: December 11, 2016, 01:40:27 PM »
Update:

Have gone into registry and reset Executive settings as directed then ran test again......got the same results as before which were very good.

 :aok

Here is a handy little link to an article on how to build a Windows shortcut to an app\game in which you can assign CPU core affinity in the target (or location) line so when you use it to run the app\game this is done automatically in the order you specify...................

https://www.eightforums.com/tutorials/40339-cpu-affinity-shortcut-program-create-windows.html

 :salute
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 01:45:04 PM by Pudgie »
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Offline MADe

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2016, 08:18:42 PM »
so i got into  crowd and the graph pretty good. by good i mean no extremes, same consistant variability.

i enabled post lighting options
i backed all 3 tree/terrain/ sliders back to 80%.
the only thing not selected is reflections and AA
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Offline MADe

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2016, 10:32:14 PM »
can someone tell me why I do not want these kinda of graphs.

I was buzzzin all over in a crowd, freakin got the butter................
Seriously why wouldn't I keep doing this?

HT my machine likes this. Fix it so I do not have to redo affinity assignments at reboots.

let me see...
I'll need a batch file at start up that remembers my choices, and tell AH to just use the cores I select option... and..............
just little scripts.
 :x
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Offline Pudgie

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2016, 10:55:06 PM »
Hi MADe,

This is why you want to use GPU frametiming graph lines to determine optimum system function as to achieve this you will need to focus on more than just a GPU driver's settings as the CPU operation is just as critical.......and our eyes can fool us just looking at a graphics scene alone as to the cause of what we see. It ain't always the GPU at fault but the evidence will show up thru the GPU frametiming graph line..............

As soon as I read the initial article on the advent of FCAT a few years ago I understood what the goal was........just needed a method of measuring this w\o having to buy & install a frame capture card (expensive). Unwinder stepped up to the plate and wrote a method into his code to provide this measurement & MSI licensed it into Afterburner (EVGA used to license his code until they parted ways & EVGA then wrote their own GPU control software). At the time MSI AB was the only 3rd party GPU control software that works equally well on both Nvidia and AMD graphics cards so in essence a 1 stop shop piece of software....which is why I (and a LOT of other users) use it & other users prefer it over the 3rd party GPU control software of the graphics card brand they bought......unless they too licensed Unwinder's code.

 :salute

PS---I agree w\ your statement as well......................... .........

 :salute
« Last Edit: December 11, 2016, 11:05:19 PM by Pudgie »
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Offline Pudgie

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2016, 10:58:59 PM »
Here's where I'm settling at on all this.

I'm running w\ Hyperthreading disabled and running AHIII w\ CPU core affinity assigned as follows according to the binary numerical index:
101010 (right to left.....using CPU core1, 3, 5 staying off CPU core0, 2, 4 so most other processes outside of AHIII will be assigned to core0 which will pretty much give AHIII exclusive unshared access to core1 but especially core 3 & 5 and maintain CPU core temp leveling).

Since setting all this up I also discovered that w\ the new AMD Crimson ReLive 16.12.1 drivers came Radeon WattMan GPU power\clock control which helped this FuryX big time to harness the capable power delivery system built into these cards to handle the Fiji GPU that I was actually holding this GPU back using AMD's FRTC frame limiter software set @ 80 FPS. Reset FRTC to the FreeSynch upper FPS limit of 90 FPS (corresponds w\ the monitor Hz setting in Windows of 90Hz w\ Vsynch to keep the vid card from running RR above the FreeSynch upper FPS limit) and now this FuryX is running AHIII pretty much pegged at 88-90 FPS and doing it very smoothly as this graph provided below will show:

Note: I have AMD's new Chill smart frame rate limiter enabled but when I look at the MSI graphs it shows it isn't working (graph lines are too smooth) according to a video of Scott Wasson @ AMD giving a preview of AMD Chill's operation so we'll see how it shakes out later on.

 :salute
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Offline MADe

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2016, 03:38:45 PM »
been keeping all the above mentioned choices for games options and NVidia profiles options.

I now run the 3 terrain detail sliders at 75%. Having these maxed is unnecessary, when down low causes landscape stutters, when high causes whites to scintillate annoyingly. 75% provides best solution without loss. The maps really look good.

Using 12 added worker threads, HT enabled.
I am still confining AH to cpu 3 and its ht counterpart 9. Priority at above normal selection.
CPU 3 and 9 have been removed from all other apps or services.

I have been playing with v sync options, adaptive, fast and off. OFF has some minor freezes occasionally, but feels better game play wise. The other 2 provide butter smooth presentation but it feels stunted...................pla cebo effect???????..........................

Skuzzy said this was just testing MS's ability to multithread. I think MS's multithreading technique sux's. Strictly a crisis management approach. So much of windows is about management of mobile devices, power consumption, blah blah blah. A desktop PC suffers from this! Following the msi graphs shows where core handoffs occur and those resulted in a glitch. If ms is just gonna handoff when a core gets overloaded................... ..........day late and a dollar short...........

I have tried the affinity approach before but I never matched a core with its ht counterpart and I never isolated the cores from windows. This does appear more spontaneous for moi.

 :salute

« Last Edit: December 22, 2016, 03:40:28 PM by MADe »
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Offline Pudgie

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2016, 07:35:13 PM »
Hi MADe,

I finally figured out how to code into the cmd command line in my AHIII shortcuts the syntax to not only have Windows to assign the CPU core affinity selection I have chosen when AHIII process is executed but also to have Windows assign AHIII running process high priority on top of this w\ a single click of my trackball so the game operation will get pushed to the forefront of Windows process management.......I found this also makes a difference w\ how AHIII runs as now it's threads will be getting elevated priority from the OS vs the rest of the running processes (higher thread priority ranking)......once I did this I noticed that a lot of the cloud flickering in-game ceased on my box and the game performance smoothed out even more w\o any loss in other areas of operation. Maybe it's a placebo effect, maybe it ain't............. The results I'm seeing are definately real.

Have to say, the game is getting more enjoyable and exciting for me to play since doing all this...............

 :aok

Quote
Skuzzy said this was just testing MS's ability to multithread. I think MS's multithreading technique sux's. Strictly a crisis management approach. So much of windows is about management of mobile devices, power consumption, blah blah blah. A desktop PC suffers from this! Following the msi graphs shows where core handoffs occur and those resulted in a glitch. If ms is just gonna handoff when a core gets overloaded................... ..........day late and a dollar short...........

Well after doing a lot of studying up on all this I can understand the reasoning to a certain degree as to why both MS and HTC have done what they have done........... The CPU cores aren't being overloaded per se, it's a side effect of the way in which they're being managed by the OS is what's causing the congestation to a few number of the CPU cores relative to the whole set of cores available.

For MS to write the logic into the OS to actually monitor then make these kinds of optimizations to optimize certain running processes to be used at the consumer level would be very tedious at best for little to no gain monetary wise (MS has already done some similar coding to do this.......it's active in the server-class versions of Windows OS's where it makes far more sense.....and money to boot.....to provide\use this complex of code algorithims) and for HTC to go thru hoops to write into the AHIII client all the coding to instruct the OS to optimize AHIII for each operational scenario, computer configuration being used\perceived to be used to run their software which would make the game client be overly complex and wouldn't run well on lesser systems due to the complexity causing issues so this was kept simple on the OS side to accomodate as many software developers as possible to achieve widespread adoption.....but w\ enough sophistication written in the OS for a software developer to make use of if they so desire.

So does it work as it is? The answer is yes. Can it work optimally as it is currently being used? Depending on the app\game being run, not always but it works well enough for the vast majority of uses at the consumer level of computing.

The issue is the definition of what is considered to be optimum regarding this topic...............

So all you & I are doing is making manual application(s) to take advantage of what is already there to be taken advantage of to help AHIII run better......
I'm also taking advantage of a method of setting all this up in a manner that automates the application(s) process w\ a single click of the mouse................

Where I see all this becoming useful is when a CPU that is equipped w\ more than 4 physical CPU cores on die is being used. This is what I discovered on the side from all my testing to try to find the cause of the screen pauses\freezes. It is these type CPU's that the consumer versions of Windows is really gonna have issues properly optimizing all of these cores unless the OS is revamped to improve thread management\optimization\utilization across them.......

I have always believed that once you understand how something works, you can then exploit it to it's fullest potential or to the fullest potential of your level of understanding. It's there to be had.....just depends on whether it's worth the effort to get it.

The more I read, study & learn the more exploitation I will be able to take advantage of..................

Enjoy!

 :salute
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Offline MADe

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2016, 12:29:58 AM »
I see it differently.
MS OS's are really a forced generic environment that try to cover as many different variations of hardware and software as sanely possible. Lately they have tried to be somewhat more proprietary in there latest OS deployments as well..........

Latest games should and could be taking the bull by the horns and utilizing current available hardwares to their fullest but current game producers are not! I'm at a loss why they keep pushing multicore hardware with such poor software support in the industry.

AH is old software by modern standards, its not gonna take advantage, and its forced to operate under OS's bidding. Now AH itself could and should move itself off the standard OS operating core, 0, at minimum. By the same method you did. But theres small incentive.

I also wonder if it would help to have certain processes included with the games selected threads. ie: nvidia drivers
I should be able to run game, sound, nic, each on a dedicated core set.......

hmmm the pc has 41 processes running, i would need to understand what each does and if the game needs it besides the system

You see I'm all for manual, generic blah. You are using free sync so your 1 up on me, system wise. I'm using a 60Hz LED display and trying to over compensate. I really do like no vsync, I imagine its similar to freesync in feeling.
 :salute
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2016, 06:30:47 AM »
<snip>
Latest games should and could be taking the bull by the horns and utilizing current available hardwares to their fullest but current game producers are not! I'm at a loss why they keep pushing multicore hardware with such poor software support in the industry.

AH is old software by modern standards, its not gonna take advantage, and its forced to operate under OS's bidding. Now AH itself could and should move itself off the standard OS operating core, 0, at minimum. By the same method you did. But theres small incentive.

I also wonder if it would help to have certain processes included with the games selected threads. ie: nvidia drivers
I should be able to run game, sound, nic, each on a dedicated core set.......

hmmm the pc has 41 processes running, i would need to understand what each does and if the game needs it besides the system.
<snip>

First:  Aces High III is a complete re-write of the game making use of the latest, greatest technology available to the game.

Second:  No application can allocate itself to any given CPU core or cores.  There is no API for that in Windows.  That is the realm of the operating system and that is where it should be.

Third:  The number of processes is certainly important, but take a look at the active number of threads running.  That tells a more interesting story.  My system, at this very second, only has 38 processes running on it, but there are 518 threads running.  After I start the game and go online, the number of active threads jumps to 595.
The number of threads will vary, depending on what is going on in the game.

The CPU/core activity you see in graphs has a very course resolution of about 1/2 second.  They are not going to visually be able to show all the activity.

Windows is a very bloated operating system.  I mean, over 500 threads running (Windows 7 Pro), just for the operating system is absurd.  If the operating system was really focused on running any given application, it would surprise you to see how fast it would be.  Even AMD and Nvidia have been very vocal about the poor performance of DirectX.  AMD got so fed up with it they invested in creating a new API.
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Offline Bizman

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #54 on: December 23, 2016, 12:48:15 PM »
Windows is a very bloated operating system.  I mean, over 500 threads running (Windows 7 Pro), just for the operating system is absurd.  If the operating system was really focused on running any given application, it would surprise you to see how fast it would be.

I can confirm that. Several years ago I reinstalled XP for a friend to be used for a USB effects/mixer platform at the training facilities of his band. So I just disabled most every process I figured would not be needed, including everything networking related. The speed boost was incredible!
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

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Offline Pudgie

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #55 on: December 23, 2016, 06:44:03 PM »
Ran a little test on my box as follows:

Was at desktop w\ FF open this morning (reading this thread).....opened Task Manager to Performance tab to observe:

With FF open and all my stuff running in the notification tray came out to 76 processes running 1201 threads w\ 3%-5% CPU usage.

Shut down all 9 of my stuff in the tray (8 programs and Kapersky AV) and left FF open for a total of 14 processes removed so system is now at 62 processes running 888 threads w\ 0% CPU usage.

Then I shut down FF which removed 2 more processes from running for a total of 60 processes running 775 threads (desktop itself....Win 7 HP SP1).

Shut down my box to clear out the system mem then restarted box back to desktop fresh w\ all my stuff running but no FF............
Showed 80 processes running 1117 threads w\ 1%-3% CPU usage.
After 10 mins sitting w\o doing anything Win HP SP1 readjusted itself to 75 processes running 1086 threads w\ 0%-3% CPU usage..........

So all the stuff I've loaded is only creating 311-313 threads......the rest is Windows and drivers.......

I see your point......................

 :salute
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Offline MADe

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2016, 12:13:09 AM »
U know way more than moi.
U say bloated, I say generic.

If I can go in and manually assign affinity, I do not understand why AH cannot then do so as a matter of course?
Its all coding...........?thru task man you can do something, pudgie's link, and I will explore.

If windows allocates cores only as demand increases, if windows predominately uses cpu 0 1st, then why bother allowing the game to follow? The thread contention definitely diminishes when cpu 0 is not used for game.

Again I'm just a schmocuk but its seems that if MS is gonna play mr generic, AH could try a couple of end a rounds for better player experience. Core parking was a similiar stutter monster.

IE: AH2, I would run into this a lot. Be on a guys 6 getting into firing range and he would warp. I do not have such warps now. I still see latency warps, but its not close in any more. There is a difference in the games spontenaity with my setup and display.................

 :salute
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Offline Bizman

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2016, 03:23:24 AM »
MADe, did I understand your post correctly, are you suggesting that AH should use the less used cores instead of core #0?

If so, knowing that AH can utilize three cores (IIRC) at the max, what would you suggest for a dual core cpu which can run AH just fine?
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline Skuzzy

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2016, 06:27:43 AM »
You guys keep drawing conclusions based on faulty data.  You really think the CPU usage is really ever at zero?  No, it is not.

Microsoft is not showing how much CPU it is taking to run the operating system.  It does not show how much CPU activity it takes to just run all those threads it uses.  There are some very active threads in the operating system.  Just processing the message queues for all the GUI based threads is significant.

As far as taking over control, from the operating system and picking our own cores goes, there is nothing to be gained.  What you might perceive as being better for your computer could be worse for another computer.  The base assumption that what works for my computer must work for every other computer is not accurate.  If it were true, then every computer would run Aces High III exactly the same.

You can take two identical computers and they will not act the same, based on what is installed on them. The operating system behavior is very easily altered by user software.  It is why malware/spyware/viruses are so easy to inject into the system.

What you guys are doing is interesting, but it is almost impossible for you to draw conclusions, which can applied to any computer running Windows.
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Offline save

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Re: still settling in
« Reply #59 on: December 27, 2016, 02:53:15 AM »
Through free software I've set my programs to permanently use higher cpu priority (in this case TrackIR, Teamspeak, and Aces High).
Specially TrackIR was sometimes lagging in operation before I started to use it.

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