Design discussion for Fjord Fury (June 2018 Scenario)

[Devil 505]

Yep, it is basically:

6 109G-14 with gondolas -or- 6 109K-4's.

Go with the K-4. Your going to have a hard time filling G-14 slots.

[Easyscor]

Go with the K-4. Your going to have a hard time filling G-14 slots.

Especially if you force them to take performance killing gondolas.

[Guppy35]

I think it can depend on the ratio of things.

To take two extreme examples, let's say there were 20 P-51's and 5 Lanc formations vs. 40 FW 190A-9's.  In that case, all of the Lancs would die every time short of target.  Let's say there were 20 P-51's and 40 Lanc formations vs. 20 FW 190D-9's.  In that case, a bunch of Lancs would survive to target.

What I try to do in bombing scenarios is choose the number of attacking fighters, number of attacking bombers, and number of defending fighters so that the defenders aren't overwhelmed and have their chance to kill a fair amount of stuff, but the bombers won't be totally wiped out all the time.  I try for middle ground.

The problem is that you can't calculate that perfectly and guarantee it.  The best I can figure is to look at past strategic bombing scenarios (Big Week, DGS, DGSII, BOG, BOWL, Final Battle, etc.) and look at various ratios of things that worked out OK, tweak it some for circumstances (like you might make them more accommodating to the bombers if you have Lancs instead of B-17's).

As long as the defenders have more attacking cannon armed fighters than the bombers have escorts, the bombers will die, in particular with the smaller numbers we have now.  It's not like any of the regulars don't know exactly how it will play out.  And with the Lancs having fewer guns to defend themselves, it will make it easier for the defenders.  The LW guys are telling us that.   The tactics are always the same cause they work

Keep in mind the past scenarios mentioned involved a lot more players as a whole and even then the bombers more often then not got clobbered.  And this was when we had more targets, and the ability to have more than one raid going at a time.  I'm not trying to be such a downer on this, but i worry about the bomber guys getting discouraged quickly.  Not like we haven't seen that before too. 

[Brooke]

I think of this one as being similar to Big Week.

The bombers in this one have lower defensive firepower and are, perhaps, less robust than in Big Week.

However, the German defenders have, I think, less bomber-killing power here than in Big Week because in Big Week, 40% of the aircraft were 190A's, and the 109's could all carry gondolas.  It depends a little on how accurate folks are with 30 mm here.  Those can be nice, but for a lot of people, the bad ballistics and low fire rate means they aren't as deadly as 3-4 20 mm cannons.

Big Week worked out OK.

This one is like that, but has the ratios tweaked a bit in favor of the Lancasters.

However, if a lot of folks think Lancs are still going to get wiped out most of the time, the next step would be increasing the number of allied fighters some -- by two (if folks think that's enough), or four (if they think the current setup really is not balanced well).

I think the current numbers are OK as long as Lancs are at least as sturdy as Ju 88's.

[Brooke]

Swareiam and Ditto, you two good with changing one group of P-51's to P-51B's?

[BFOOT1]

Yes.  Oboe?  Red? BFOOT1?  Willing to fly 315 Squadron Mustang III in Oboe’s updated 315 skin? 

They did actually escort Lancs over Norway on one occasion in November 44
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Since you asked so nicely, I’ll fly with you in 315 if you’re leading 

[Brooke]

I think we should add one more ground target for the Lancs.  This makes it more sure Lancs won't run out of bases to go after in the case that the Lanc groups are going after different targets.

Ditto, Swareiam, you guys OK with that?

I recommend any one of a63, a67, or a69.

[Devil 505]

Especially if you force them to take performance killing gondolas.

I disagree. The G-14 is so wildly outclassed in this setup that the gondolas really don't hurt it that much in the grand scheme of things. With them, a G-14 it least has a reasonably good chance to score a kill if they can get a shot. Single hub cannon only kills are either high skill or dumb luck with the G-14's here.

[puller]

I disagree. The G-14 is so wildly outclassed in this setup that the gondolas really don't hurt it that much in the grand scheme of things. With them, a G-14 it least has a reasonably good chance to score a kill if they can get a shot. Single hub cannon only kills are either high skill or dumb luck with the G-14's here.

This

[Guppy35]

Since you asked so nicely, I’ll fly with you in 315 if you’re leading 

OK Brooke, I'm halfway there with 51B/Mustang III drivers

[Brooke]

OK Brooke, I'm halfway there with 51B/Mustang III drivers

I'm up for it if Ditto and Swareiam are OK with it. 

[Brooke]

Guys, again, don't worry about gondola-less 109G-14's.

This was all just a discussion that started between me and Ditto, with Ditto wanting to switch one of the K4 groups to G-14's with gondolas, and me being hesitant about that and wanting them to stay as K4's.

We weren't talking about changing a group of K4's into G-14's with no gondolas.

Given that folks aren't clamoring for G-14's with or without gondolas, I think we should keep them K4's that are a highly desirable plane to fly.

One of the points of this scenario is so that folks can fly latest-war prop planes that they rarely get in scenarios.

[Spikes]

Mossie XVI's would fit better than Lancasters this late in the war.

[perdue3]

Guys, again, don't worry about gondola-less 109G-14's.

This was all just a discussion that started between me and Ditto, with Ditto wanting to switch one of the K4 groups to G-14's with gondolas, and me being hesitant about that and wanting them to stay as K4's.

We weren't talking about changing a group of K4's into G-14's with no gondolas.

Given that folks aren't clamoring for G-14's with or without gondolas, I think we should keep them K4's that are a highly desirable plane to fly.

One of the points of this scenario is so that folks can fly latest-war prop planes that they rarely get in scenarios.

The historian in says we must have G-14's considering there were no K-4's. But, the Aces High player says K-4 for balance reasons. In the end, it just all depends on if you (designers) side with balance or accuracy. I am happy either way, but then again, I will likely make 0 frames of this one.

[Brooke]

Let's use our limited time on the list of things to decide:

-- Is the number/ratio of planes sufficient for balance and, if not, what should it be?
-- Is the scoring OK for balance and, if not, what should it be?
-- Should the Luftwaffe have more than 50 miles of radar?
-- One more land target?

And leave off things we're not working to decide:  Mossies, G-14's, things other than what is in the list above.