Author Topic: Boeing 737 Max  (Read 1290 times)

Offline Puma44

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2020, 03:14:15 PM »
Interesting, I assumed it was along those lines. I just figured these days it would be more common to have newer instruments in most aircraft these days.

Another thing too is - all of the training in the world in a simulated situation won't help you in a real world situation if anxiety takes over for one reason or another. Pilots might go their entire career without getting into a snafu where emergency training has to play a part.

That’s why it important to have highly experienced and well trained pilots sitting up front.  More accumulated aviation muscle memory if something hits the fan.



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Offline FESS67

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2020, 04:47:23 PM »
Therein is the root cause of the two Max crashes.

No sir, These are contributing factors.  The root cause is further back in the chain.  There are features and decisions around MCAS that are likely to be the true root causes.

  • Was there a culture problem at Boeing?
  • Were they desperate to compete against the Airbus offering?
  • Did they in fact conceal information from or deliberately seek to misinform the FAA?
  • Why was MCAS not properly explained to airlines and pilots?

I do not think it is right to lay all the blame at the feet of the pilots or airlines when the machine itself was flawed.  If it had not been for MCAS neither of those brand new planes would have crashed.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2020, 05:07:53 PM »
No sir, These are contributing factors.  The root cause is further back in the chain.  There are features and decisions around MCAS that are likely to be the true root causes.

  • Was there a culture problem at Boeing?
  • Were they desperate to compete against the Airbus offering?
  • Did they in fact conceal information from or deliberately seek to misinform the FAA?
  • Why was MCAS not properly explained to airlines and pilots?

I do not think it is right to lay all the blame at the feet of the pilots or airlines when the machine itself was flawed.  If it had not been for MCAS neither of those brand new planes would have crashed.

Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree.  Pilots are the last line of defense in the event of an emergency event.  If it had not been for inexperienced, possibly incompetent pilots, neither of those jets would have crashed.  The malfunction both jets experienced was recoverable with effective airmanship and situational awareness.  Neither incident demonstrated that. :salute

Boeing does deserve a bloody nose for hiding the MCAS from operators, but not the pummeling it has undergone.



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Offline Busher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2020, 06:40:17 PM »
No sir, These are contributing factors.  The root cause is further back in the chain.  There are features and decisions around MCAS that are likely to be the true root causes.

  • Was there a culture problem at Boeing?
  • Were they desperate to compete against the Airbus offering?
  • Did they in fact conceal information from or deliberately seek to misinform the FAA?
  • Why was MCAS not properly explained to airlines and pilots?

I do not think it is right to lay all the blame at the feet of the pilots or airlines when the machine itself was flawed.  If it had not been for MCAS neither of those brand new planes would have crashed.

Maybe you could share with us your extensive experience in the cockpit of jet aircraft.

I do admire your journalistic capabilities though. You managed to phrase each of your questions like an accusation.

When grossly inexperienced pilots are dispatched in jet aircraft and an abnormal event occurs (and yes I said abnormal-not emergency, because a stab runaway is a non-event for experienced well trained pilots), the results can be biblical. I will also add that the Ethiopian jet should not have been dispatched. It had clearly been faulted for intermittent Air Data Computer failures which ultimately caused the MCAS to intervene when no intervention was needed. Experienced pilots would know that and would have declined to fly the airplane until the fault was rectified.

If I can find fault with Boeing, I could only say that they should not have given the MCAS such force that it could not easily be overridden by average pilot strength which would give the pilots as much time as they needed to disable the stab trim and manually correct the mis-trim situation.
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Offline fuzeman

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2020, 10:27:52 PM »
Well this will be locked eventually, but anyway...what makes the MAX so different than previous 737s that would require such heavy training for the type? Is it just new technological systems to get acquainted with?

No expert of course but they hung bigger engines under the wings and it pushed the nose up more so than older ones when thrust was added, and the pilots were never made aware of the MCAS and how it would effect flight. 
Very simplified, very very.

Juan Browne on blancolirio, https://www.youtube.com/user/blancolirio , had some great videos on the Max. At least I thought he did.
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Offline FESS67

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2020, 02:41:04 AM »
Maybe you could share with us your extensive experience in the cockpit of jet aircraft.

I do admire your journalistic capabilities though. You managed to phrase each of your questions like an accusation.

That was not my intent.  They are simple questions and there is documented evidence that each of these things was in play.  I understand that correct maintenance and adequate pilot skills are required and in these cases are likely contributing factors, however there is a chorus of people who wish to place all the responsibility on the airlines and none on the manufacturer and that is not a balanced analysis of the accidents.


Online Shuffler

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2020, 02:58:54 AM »
That was not my intent.  They are simple questions and there is documented evidence that each of these things was in play.  I understand that correct maintenance and adequate pilot skills are required and in these cases are likely contributing factors, however there is a chorus of people who wish to place all the responsibility on the airlines and none on the manufacturer and that is not a balanced analysis of the accidents.

So two crashes happened that would not have..... if there were pilots in the cabin.

There are no perfect planes..... pilots get you to your destination in one piece.
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Offline FESS67

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2020, 03:36:49 AM »
So two crashes happened that would not have..... if there were pilots in the cabin.

There are no perfect planes..... pilots get you to your destination in one piece.

As usual you take a simplistic view of the world.

Offline UpMaKilt

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2020, 04:10:55 AM »
Or, low time, inexperienced pilots which was another indicator in these incidents.

Other than the FO on the Ethiopian flight, the rest of the pilots had several thousands of hours of flight time.

Online Shuffler

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2020, 07:07:58 AM »
As usual you take a simplistic view of the world.

Two pilots in those planes and no one died. No plane crash.

You can blame anyone you like for your lawyers. The fact stands. It is simple.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2020, 11:35:17 AM »
Other than the FO on the Ethiopian flight, the rest of the pilots had several thousands of hours of flight time.

How much time in the 737?  What type aircraft was their other time logged in?



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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2020, 11:42:13 AM »
How much time in the 737?  What type aircraft was their other time logged in?

i seem to recall that the Manu pushed that all training you needed to move from the previous version was a video and an ipad. no simulator needed.


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Offline Busher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2020, 11:49:42 AM »
That was not my intent.  They are simple questions and there is documented evidence that each of these things was in play.  I understand that correct maintenance and adequate pilot skills are required and in these cases are likely contributing factors, however there is a chorus of people who wish to place all the responsibility on the airlines and none on the manufacturer and that is not a balanced analysis of the accidents.

In a properly maintained 737Max, the MCAS would have been invisible to the pilots. It's design goal was to allow a pilot to go from a 737-NG600 (a small model) to a 737-Max8 in the same working day and experience as little handling difference as possible. As a long time airline pilot, I frankly don't see the need but the FAA demands it for "common type" certification. As I said, I do fault Boeing for giving the MCAS the input force it had; I think it's force should have been significant but average pilot strength should have been enough to override it while corrective action was taken.
Who knows, maybe that's what the FAA demanded among other things in the airplane's re-certification.
All of this discussion in the current Covid19 situation is really academic. Airlines are parking the majority of their fleets; some airlines have already failed; Boeing and Airbus can't give their products away so they may fail; and pilots with 10,000 hours of heavy jet experience are looking for work - many will leave the industry forever.
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Offline Busher

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 11:54:38 AM »
i seem to recall that the Manu pushed that all training you needed to move from the previous version was a video and an ipad. no simulator needed.


semp

Pilots have been doing that for years. B767 to B757. Airbus 319 to 320 to 321. It's not difficult and as I keep saying, in a properly maintained MAX, the MCAS's input would have been invisible.
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Offline Toad

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Re: Boeing 737 Max
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2020, 12:11:47 PM »
Couple of points, first to Busher's well made point.

The Lion Air aircraft had a KNOWN MALFUNCTION yet it wasn't repaired and was sent out on a revenue flight anyway. Tough to blame Boeing for that. This known malfunction is evidenced by the fact that the same aircraft had the same problem the day before the crash.

Then as to training: The day before the exact same malfunction occurred. A jump seat pilot saved that aircraft because he KNEW what to do while the two guys actually in the seat did not.

Quote
Indonesian investigators have confirmed the presence of a third, off-duty pilot who reportedly saved a troubled Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX the day before it crashed.

Bloomberg reported that the off-duty pilot was in the jump seat in the aircraft’s cockpit when it developed problems and suggested to the flight crew that they turn off the trim stabilizer system as they struggled to control the plane...

...“The third pilot, who has not been identified, was qualified to fly Max 8s and was deadheading aboard the Oct. 28 flight from Bali’s Denpasar airport to Jakarta,” The Washington Post quoted  Soerjanto Tjahjono, the head of Indonesia’s National Transportation Safety Committee, as saying. “The aircraft encountered the same problems that appear to have caused it to crash a day later.”     https://www.airlineratings.com/news/lion-air-investigators-confirm-presence-third-pilot/

So how is it that one 737MAX jumpseat pilot instantly knew the correct procedure but the two 737MAX pilots actually in the seat did not?

Lastly, just about every well-trained pilot has had it drilled into him/her from day one that if you move a secondary flight control and the aircraft immediately does something abnormal, then you immediately put that secondary flight control back where it was. Had either of the two 737MAX crash crews done THAT...MCAS would not function. Had they returned the flaps to where they were before retraction and subsequently returned to land....no crashes. Yet these two crews apparently did not know this very basic flight training standard.
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