109 pilots. Share some secrets flying the beasts

[nopoop]

Ok, more questions 

Shane I've been doing a little practice on hammer heads. To the right or left ? I've been starting at around 150. Chop throttle, full right rudder and let it flop ?  Correct ? Flaps ?

Also on the con's break. Fought a brewster. I would think the closer I can get to the vertical on the engagement the better to follow the break for a snap  shot. Or is the hard pullout going to make me lose more than gain cuz most times it is not a kill. Gunnery....

I'm somewhat encouraged, I'm 3 and 0, but the brewster went for a face shot and I had the pods..

 

[Shane]

It wants to fall right, more so if you throttle down.  The 109's shouldn't be getting into flaps very often - they're pretty situational. You'll most likely end up in flaps when you get yourself in a downward spiral or rolling scissors and are trying to slow down and stay behind the hog about to kill you     

The key thing about 109's is work with them, don't try and force them. It's very much a "timing" machine as opposed to an instant reaction killer.  (One of my weaker skillsets is recognizing when to drop the hammer on my ropes and I end up just missing my shot (that others won't.) Altho' if your gunnery allows, they are great crossing shot killers.

Stick with them long enough and you'll figure it out - not an immediate gratification plane. 

Once you get a good handle on the 109s, you can graduate to LA7s which is the best all-around dog pure fighter imho. 

[Arlo]

trying to slow down and stay behind the hog about to kill you     

Shane! You magnificent arbiter of common sense! 

[FLS]

Try it..

Get into a tight high turn with CT on..

Have manual trim set to a rotor with that rotor maxed up..

Have a button to turn CT on and off..

In the midlle of the tight turnhit the button to turn ct off and max trim on...


I can feel the extra lift and turn quicker

I have done this for years, the slower the fight the more the effect

It works on all planes

Eagler

Can you pull pitch to an accelerated stall in the turn when you are trimmed for level flight?

[LCADolby]

To to show how important rudder and throttle control is, I have tried my best to hand pick some examples;

An Example of Rudder and Throttle keeping position behind a target. 109F v Spit9


An Example of Rudder and Throttle control causing the 109 to fly 90 degrees to it's forward momentum, excessive deceleration for defence (1:27-1:37). I advise only trying this in the G6, it has by far the more profound Torque to play with in such moves.
109G6 v P38.


Tail Flipping over the top of the rope loop is all about timing. (3:10)


K$ doing the Rudder Tail slide defence for the shot (1:50- ), if you continue the video, there is another example of the same thing 109F v Jug


109G6 using the Tail to slide into position on Ki84 (0:15-), clip after also shows a slide to slow for a crossing shot in defence v P38

[Eagler]

Can you pull pitch to an accelerated stall in the turn when you are trimmed for level flight?

I was watching trim in MNM last night..

Turning with CT on trim rises some but doesn't go all the way to the top..

But as soon as I kill CT and go manual with trim set to 100%, trim swings up to the top and I get around faster

Kills speed but helps turning

If you manual trim while turning then maybe you are going 100% trim already but if stay using CT while turning it it better for maintaining speed but you won't turn as fast

Eagler

[LCADolby]

Yes, CT does move the stick forward. All aircraft noses rise with the speed, CT pushes the stick forward.
The faster you are the more CT pushes the nose, but you do not gain any turning ability in the 109 with manual trim at speeds under 325-350mph.
The only aircraft that benefits from manual trim at low speeds in my experience, is the P51D. Applying manual trim to the 109 is just complicating your flying needlessly.

[FLS]

My question is if you can pull to a stall in a flat turn without max trim. Typically you aren't using full elevator deflection in a turn so adding trim just changes the stick position relative to the elevator position. It seems likely that instead of adding trim you could just move the stick a bit for the same effect, since trim also changes the elevator position.

When you keep your speed it's simply because you aren't turning as hard. This is quantified on your G meter.

Lift produces drag, turning requires increased lift, so there is increased drag in proportion. You always get more drag when you turn harder, regardless of trim setting.

Nothing wrong with your way but I don't see an advantage to it.

[Puma44]

Have manual trim set to a rotor with that rotor maxed up..


Eagler

Eagler, I’m not familiar with the term “rotor”.  What’s the meaning? 

[Eagler]

Eagler, I’m not familiar with the term “rotor”.  What’s the meaning? 

I use the tm1600 for throttle

On the left side is a rotor wheel that I set for manual trim

I keep that spun up to the top for max up trim so that when I hit the button to kill ct and go manual,  it almost instantly goes to full up trim and back to ct when the button is pressed again

I think it gives you an edge in close slow t&b

If he has a buddy you are dead usually as once you start going full trim up your speed is gone

Eagler

[Puma44]

I use the tm1600 for throttle

On the left side is a rotor wheel that I set for manual trim

I keep that spun up to the top for max up trim so that when I hit the button to kill ct and go manual,  it almost instantly goes to full up trim and back to ct when the button is pressed again

I think it gives you an edge in close slow t&b

If he has a buddy you are dead usually as once you start going full trim up your speed is gone

Eagler

OK, thanks!  It appears a lot of players use some sort of varying trim technique.  A possible issue could be having to counter all that trim when transitioning to a different phase of flight, i.e. slow & high AOA to accelerating to reposition, or vice versus.  All in the technique that works for each player.

[morfiend]

I’d like to clear up a few AH urban myths,CT or combat trim is based on a set of tables.X speed = Y setting,it’s just an easy way to reduce pilot load,it won’t increase or decrease the turn rate, it just adjust the virtual stick position. Some things that aren’t factored in are damage and flaps,that’s why when you have cut on and flaps deployed you have a slight nose pitch up  and need to add forward stick to stay level. Same for when you lower gear,that’s not factored in and again you have a slight nose up pitch.

  As for flying the 109, I tend to fly it like any other plane in AH,I want all the thrust I can get and very rarely cut power. Instead I use  BFM and the energy egg principle to control the flight and fight. Yes sometimes you might find it difficult to roll to the right at slow speeds and full thrust but just a small reduction in thrust and standing on the rudder will allow you to roll it to the right.

When fighting in a 109 I try,although not always successfully to take the fight uphill and this is usually done in a right hand spiral,same for when I make a break turn it’s usually to the right as most pilots break left. The. left break is for several reasons,most are right handed and it’s a more natural move to pull your hand to you than to push away. I believe if you are aware of this you can setup to cut the corner and get closer for a shot. Does it always go that way,NO, but it’s a good rule of thumb and something to take note of in your next engagement.


As always YMMV.


   <S>

[Mongoose]

It wants to fall right, more so if you throttle down.

Ok, this brings up a question for me.  Why does it want to fall right?  I would thing the counter torque would pull it to the left.

By the way, I have enjoyed this thread.  Even though I don't fly 109's, it has been a good read.  Thanks.

[Mongoose]

I found an old post by Hitech explaining Combat Trim

Trim is a system that can not be simulated accurately with spring return to center controls like we use. With real controls you simply hold them where you want and move trim until there is no force left on the control.

HiTech

https://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,399077.msg5289744.html#msg5289744

So in a real airplane, I could be flying level and have to apply a little left aileron to keep the plane level. I would turn the trim wheel until there was no more pressure on the stick, and the plane would be trimmed.

With my joystick at my computer, there is no way to feel that pressure as I would in a real airplane.   That's why combat trim was invented.  Since CT is a simple mindless formula, it is sometimes more effective to turn it off and trim the plan manually.

[Tig]

I know I just barely picked up the 109, but I just thought I'd share how I've started to find great success by studying up on wartime dogfight records for the 109.
Just sticking to the aces' evaluations of going BnZ and avoiding turn fights is working wonders for my performance in the 109. Killed 3 in one sortie (one Superfort, one Jug, and one Fw 190), managed to push the P-47 down to the deck before finishing him off. I finally fought with my brain rather than my hands haha, I finally figured out how to make him burn his energy while conserving my own.

So my admittedly beginner tip is just be a smart BnZer and you get great results. I think. Lol.