Author Topic: Spy ballons.  (Read 9585 times)

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #60 on: February 04, 2023, 12:13:04 PM »

Could or Couldn't?


Could.

I remember reading article about people going out on their lawns to see it when the local radio man told them it was gong to be overhead.

You're not seeing the actual structure but it's reflected light just like any other satellite or ISS, or Starlink.  Yeah, to actually resolve the structure you'd need serious optics.  You're seeing something like a mirror flash from a long way away but moving across the sky.  Low orbit stuff moves really quick so you only have a couple minutes spot it.

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Though Sputnik 1 was small, it was quite reflective and therefore visible from Earth through a pair of binoculars (and perhaps even with the naked eye, if you had good vision and knew exactly where to look).
 

The trick is know where and when to look.  They are easy to miss if you are not paying attention and often might just be mistaken for an aircraft (except they don't blink.)  So you'd either need a news man to telling you or software they didn't have then. 

But plenty of regular people saw Sputnik.  That's part of what drove the hysteria.

My eye sight ain't great but I've spotted up to 12 satellites on an evening with software.  Not hard if you know the alt and azimuth and local time to pick up your tracking.

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Not only could you hear Sputnik, but, depending on where you were, it was possible to see it with the naked eye on certain days in the early morning or the late evening when the Sun was still close enough to the horizon to illuminate it.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sputnik/nation.html#:~:text=Not%20only%20could%20you%20hear,the%20horizon%20to%20illuminate%20it.




« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 12:18:34 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #61 on: February 04, 2023, 12:16:10 PM »



Seriously.  Is one balloon with an oversized GoPro hanging off it really worth getting hysterical over?

It's amusing and unusual, but not worth going into the fallout shelter over.
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Offline RUSH1

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #62 on: February 04, 2023, 12:32:08 PM »
(Image removed from quote.)

Seriously.  Is one balloon with an oversized GoPro hanging off it really worth getting hysterical over?

It's amusing and unusual, but not worth going into the fallout shelter over.

I think the point that many are trying to make is what kind of precedence is set by allowing this thing to invade our airspace in the first place.  It really does not matter how harmless you think it is. 
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #63 on: February 04, 2023, 12:36:59 PM »
I think the point that many are trying to make is what kind of precedence is set by allowing this thing to invade our airspace in the first place.  It really does not matter how harmless you think it is.

It is at an altitude we have flown U2 and SR71 over other countries.

Perhaps we have already set the precedence.


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Offline icepac

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #64 on: February 04, 2023, 12:41:03 PM »
It would be a shame if it didn’t get some graffiti sprayed on it.

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #65 on: February 04, 2023, 12:57:15 PM »
It would be a shame if it didn’t get some graffiti sprayed on it.

Or have it's GoPro swapped out for a carton of #4 egg foo young.

 :cool:
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Offline RUSH1

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #66 on: February 04, 2023, 12:58:31 PM »
It is at an altitude we have flown U2 and SR71 over other countries.

Perhaps we have already set the precedence.

That we're better spies?  I hope so.  But, if the Soviets had the capability to stop us they would have.  I guess you don't have an opinion on the concern over precedence?
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Offline 100Coogn

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #67 on: February 04, 2023, 01:01:13 PM »
Interesting things going on in Flightradar24.
The 2nd balloon is over Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.  Air traffic was closed over the area.  However, there is one plane with no callsign making a bunch of circles there.
Military aircraft for sure, eh?



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« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 01:06:01 PM by 100Coogn »
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Offline TyFoo

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #68 on: February 04, 2023, 01:03:10 PM »

Strangely, there does not appear to be any established internationally agreed upon upper limit on sovereign airspace.  We claim ~60k ft but China claims all of the South China Sea.  Claiming something doesn’t make it reasonable.  We extend our territorial waters 12 mi off shore horizontally.  Based on that, a reasonable sovereign airspace limit might be 12 mi above the surface vertically.  That’s right about where this thing is drifting I believe. 

It’s certainly a gray enough area that we should refrain from blowing stuff up unless it is posing an immediate threat.  By our own standards we shouldn’t care if we are survielled.  I think we should have treaties defining an agreed upon airspace limit before we start shooting stuff down.  What if China wants to claim that space shuttle and ISS overflights of it’s country are threat?  What if they claim their airspace extends 200k miles? 
 

I don't disagree with the points that you have made, but in regard to Sovereign airspace - There is no gray area. The Chicago Convention established the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) back in the mid 1940's. Which China is a part of. That agreement established Sovereign airspace over each country. Whether it is recognized or not is another story. 

As far as U.S. Military aircraft capabilities, the F15, and the F22 have service ceilings in the mid 60s.

The fact that the balloon has been over the U.S. for more than a few days tells you the capability/ ability of China to manipulate the winds to navigate the balloon.

Google did a lot of experimentation with this over the last 10 years. They put balloons up into the air and learned to move them up and down to keep the balloons within a specific geographical region for days and possibly weeks. The idea was to provide internet/ cell service to remote areas. If I remember correctly they did deploy this technology over Puerto Rico after one of the hurricanes. 

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #69 on: February 04, 2023, 01:05:20 PM »
That we're better spies?  I hope so.

So you admit we do exactly the same thing.  Gotcha.

No, this doesn't particularly concern me.  I believe it is being monitored and tracked by our military.  As long as it is not a weapon system or drops down into airline traffic space, then I consider it relatively benign, because I believe in the Open Skies philosophy.  I believe countries conducting surveillance on each other creates a more stable peace. Which is why I'm ok with our spy satellites and recon flights.

At least the government didn't try and claim it was swamp gas.   :cool:







« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 01:08:06 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #70 on: February 04, 2023, 01:07:27 PM »
I don't disagree with the points that you have made, but in regard to Sovereign airspace - There is no gray area. The Chicago Convention established the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) back in the mid 1940's. Which China is a part of. That agreement established Sovereign airspace over each country. Whether it is recognized or not is another story. 

"Civil aviation"

And did we over-fly other countries with U2 and SR71 after that agreement?

« Last Edit: February 04, 2023, 01:09:14 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline Eviscerate

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #71 on: February 04, 2023, 01:10:19 PM »
Interesting things going on in Flightradar24.
The 2nd balloon is over Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.  Air traffic was closed over the area.  However, there is one plane with no callsign making a bunch of circles there.
Military aircraft for sure, eh?

(Image removed from quote.)

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Yes I think it's safe to say a plane operated by the USAF is military.

Offline 100Coogn

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #72 on: February 04, 2023, 01:11:29 PM »
Yes I think it's safe to say a plane operated by the USAF is military.

Aren't you sharp today.  :rofl

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Offline TyFoo

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #73 on: February 04, 2023, 01:38:43 PM »
"Civil aviation"

And did we over-fly other countries with U2 and SR71 after that agreement?

Hence, I stated "Whether its recoginized or not is another story"

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Spy ballons.
« Reply #74 on: February 04, 2023, 01:40:10 PM »
Hence, I stated "Whether its recoginized or not is another story"

But that agreement was civil aviation, right?
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