Author Topic: We killed the tomcat... what's left?  (Read 4122 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2023, 09:23:49 PM »
We've built almost 900 F-35s so far. They are WIDELY in service with many countries. Our allies. They will be a huge factor in any war. They are highly capable AND being built in huge numbers. Along with drone force multipliers - we will have the most formidable air power in history.


 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2023, 09:30:26 PM »
You can laugh all you want. Go ahead and look up what actual pilots think of the f-35 compared to the F-16 or even the F-22..
Look at the capabilities of the f-35. It blows away anything else.
And go ahead and laugh. But you're ignorant
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2023, 10:00:51 PM »
The Navy thought the Brewster Buffalo was a-okay.   

Physics does not lie.  The F-35 is a piece of crap.  Good luck with that 90-second supersonic dash capability.   :rofl
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2023, 11:08:11 PM »
Like I said. Ignorant. You have no idea how deadly that plane is.
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Offline Tig

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2023, 08:24:40 AM »
You can laugh all you want. Go ahead and look up what actual pilots think of the f-35 compared to the F-16 or even the F-22..
Look at the capabilities of the f-35. It blows away anything else.
And go ahead and laugh. But you're ignorant

I cited a book written by the founder of the famed Top Gun school, USN Capt. Dan Pedersen. Much of my information comes directly from that book. Think he's ignorant too? He doesn't like the JSF any more than I do. You might also be interested to know that he spent around 20 years in fighter jets, and commanded the USS Ranger for multiple cruises. Think an ignorant person could do that? Think again.

I personally know 4 star Air Force general Bruce Carlson. You know what he said when I asked what his favorite plane was? He said F-16 without skipping a beat. Keep in mind this guy flew F-15s, F-4s, and worked with Lockheed on the F-117 to become one of the first F-117 pilots. And he currently serves on the Lockheed Martin Board of Directors, but he still likes the General Dynamics plane more than a Lockheed.

I did in fact look at what pilots think.  :aok

Sounds like a pretty big assumption to say everyone who disagrees with you is ignorant, especially considering there are many retired fighter pilots around here.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 08:27:13 AM by Tig »
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Offline Eagler

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2023, 09:20:42 AM »
Iraq Afghanistan are the two latest...other lost wars in the past proves the side with the most expensive weapons doesn't always win

Missiles and drones can do what more expensive aircraft can do these days just as well if not better and much cheaper and do it without risking air crew loss of life

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Offline Spikes

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2023, 09:22:36 AM »
Try 4,604 F16 Falcons. Try pulling up actual facts instead of unbased opinions.  :cheers:

Apparently I'm still not making myself clear. I don't believe the JSF program is meeting its goals, and I think as a result the US military is grossly unprepared for the next war. Capisce?  :aok
It's kind of unfair to cherrypick a number of a type that's been in production for 45 years as opposed to one that's been in production for 17. Also, 1 trillion spent on a program over 27 years is nothing. The US spends nearly a trillion each year on defense alone. Every new type is going to have issues early on. I can't even fathom what goes into trying to design a base type that not only can fly normally, but take off or land vertically or land on carriers, all in the same base design. The military can't just stand pat with 50 year old tech and call it good. That's why Germany was so great in WWII, the US is where it's at now, and Russia is currently the laughingstock of the world. Innovation vs. lack of.

So in this hypothetical war, who is the US so grossly unprepared to fight? Is it Russia and their 20 some odd Su-57s? Or China and their 200 J-20s? Keep in mind there are no more 1v1 fights like in WWII where a lone P-51 finds a lone Fw 190. Where there's a US aircraft there's an entire ecosystem of stuff behind it including but not limited to refuelers, conventional bombers, supersonic bombers, electronic warfare aircraft, carrier groups, and all the weaponry that comes with these. The US war machine is really a marvel and the only one of its kind. But that's to be expected when we dump so much money into it annually.

Let's look at the logistics. How long to order a new part for an F-35 to get to say, Germany? How much in air refulling capabilities do these countries have?
If the F-35 is so good, why is the Pentagon ordering F-15EXs? AC-130s?
They're building new AC-130s. What happened to the F-35 being the end-all multirole and ground attack aircraft? We're still putting howitzers and miniguns on cargo planes.


Countries, including the US, continue to buy and use these because they work. That does not mean that a country should not innovate. Why does the US still operate B-52s and will continue to do so until they are 100 years old? Because they work. The US is fortunate enough to have this tech that is generations ahead of other non-ally countries. Why do you think the US developed the P-51 in WWII when the P-40 flew just fine? Because we were always innovating. Why did Germany develop the world's first operational jet fighter or bomber? Because they were innovating. The US operated the P-40 until the end of the war. By your (flawed) logic, I guess that makes it better than the P-51.

As for your air refueling question: Canada, France, Germany, UK, Australia, Saudi Arabia, Spain, UAE, Czech Republic, Turkey, Chile, Singapore, Israel, Japan, Netherlands and likely more all have their own capabilities.


I personally know 4 star Air Force general Bruce Carlson. You know what he said when I asked what his favorite plane was? He said F-16 without skipping a beat. Keep in mind this guy flew F-15s, F-4s, and worked with Lockheed on the F-117 to become one of the first F-117 pilots. And he currently serves on the Lockheed Martin Board of Directors, but he still likes the General Dynamics plane more than a Lockheed.

So because 1 guy flew a plane some 40 years ago during his time in service and retired 6 years before the F-35 even entered service, thus never flying it, we're declaring the F-16 better? I mean...okay.

16 countries besides the US operate or have placed orders for the F-35. Must be so bad.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 09:28:27 AM by Spikes »
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Offline TryHard

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2023, 11:06:38 AM »
The Navy thought the Brewster Buffalo was a-okay.   

Physics does not lie.  The F-35 is a piece of crap.  Good luck with that 90-second supersonic dash capability.   :rofl


Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2023, 02:39:39 PM »
All of these experts. All you have to do is read what pilots are saying. Former f-15 and F-16 pilots hands down will pick the f-35.

Or perhaps would like to explain which planes can easily deal with an f-35?

The pilots that fly these things are saying that it's the most advanced plane in the world. More advanced than the F-22. More capable than the F-22..

But what do they know? They're too stupid to know that they should have been flying tomcats today instead
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2023, 02:42:18 PM »
Also the per unit cost is down to about 77 million per plane., Fully combat ready. The new f-15 is more expensive just in its base package.

And the new f-15 EX or whatever they call it, that plan is not survivable in a modern airspace like the f-35 will be.

Yeah it's good to still have stuff like that because you're not always going to be fighting a high-tech enemy.

But we are going to have massive numbers of f-35s. Way outstripping what the Chinese have put up with their j20.
There are almost 1000 f-35s in service now. There are about 200 j-20s. I think there's only about 20 of the Russian stealth planes.

We have massive numbers and quality over anybody else. By far.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2023, 03:47:50 PM »
If Aces High has taught us anything, it's not necessarily about the plane, it's about how many are behind you and can you escape from them :rofl. Sorta joking aside, there's a big difference between 1v1 and 5v5 scenario. Or if a war broke out and squads were all over the place. What would that actually entail? What would the drone situation be like? 3 million drones with people flying them in their homes ain't nothing to sneeze at. I dont think thats too far fetched. Superiority is a tough advantage to beat. Would the aircraft have the ability to remain off radar in order to better prepare a shot? How far away can you prepare a shot? How good are your missiles? Who has the advantage in a defensive escape? Could you create an advantage if more than 1 or more enemy are chasing you?

While one guy might say F16s and one might say F35s. At the end of the day, it's going to come to pilot knowhow of the plane and its capability of success vs the enemy with #s. I think innovation is always wise, especially due to technological advances and computer power, however we must be aware they aren't going to potentially fly the same way they use to. Which means training is the #1 priority.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 03:59:45 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Puma44

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2023, 03:59:24 PM »
Out in the real world of fighters, a common saying is “Hamburger is hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in”.



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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2023, 06:00:39 PM »
No it's not going to be the pilot it's going to be the system. That's the difference with this plane. There's more situational awareness by far than anything that's ever flown.
I guess you guys don't get it.
There are lots of things still classified about its abilities but what is known is incredible.
You think it's the pilot?
They sent an f-35 against anything we've got now and that plane will be shot down before it even knows there's an f-35 around.
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Offline Tig

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2023, 07:12:26 PM »
No it's not going to be the pilot it's going to be the system. That's the difference with this plane. There's more situational awareness by far than anything that's ever flown.
I guess you guys don't get it.
There are lots of things still classified about its abilities but what is known is incredible.
You think it's the pilot?
They sent an f-35 against anything we've got now and that plane will be shot down before it even knows there's an f-35 around.


 :rofl :rofl :rofl is all I have to say
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Offline AKIron

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2023, 07:23:31 PM »
If not for the F-35 China would have already invaded Taiwan.

Prove me wrong.
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