Simulated Aerial Combat Roundtable

[CptTrips]

Stop looking in the wrong direction.


They called out Eagle Dynamics as a last ditch effort.

Kind of like being in a middle school cut-down fight....if you don't have anything left to say theres always your mom to talk about.

Razbam has hit the end of the road and talked about eagle dynamics mom.


You may say its childish...but its all they had left, other than waiting outside the school for eagle dynamics to come outside.

Well, it's not middle-school, and these are supposed to adult professionals not middle-schoolers.

This is what lawyers are for, and any lawyer is going to tell them to get off the internet and shut their pie hole.  They're probably just hurting their case if they have one.

And it is sounding more like they actually were the ones in the wrong, but we may never find out the whole story either way.

Anyway, not my circus and not my monkey.

And they're not making the Kiowa.

[Tumor]

And they're not making the Kiowa.

That actually made me urk a little.

Anyway... Polychop better be on it this time.  Having improved a whole lot somewhat recently (all things considered), the Gazelle FM was complete & total cow doody on release and for the better part of a decade.  The thing (FM) felt like someone plastered DCS level graphics on an FM created for a C64.

Backing up a bit, I don't remember a lot of the details regarding the HAWK, however I remember getting the distinct feeling that VEAO simply wanted out so they could move on to other things (which they did, I haven't a clue if it worked out for them or not).  IMO, the long-story-short of it was ED held their feet to the fire, so they bailed in the most painful way possible, not caring one iota about the paying customer.  Sure, you can still get ahold of it on Steam, I think, and even fly it if you want to back up a dozen versions of DCS World, but it wasn't "done" in the first place and really wasn't anything to get excited about anyway.  there was a lot of talk about trying to reach an amicable agreement in the interim.  Didn't happen.  But hey, it was the HAWK, so 8 out of 10 casual DCSrs didn't really care. 

Don't quote me on this, but RAZBAM has had some kinda-funny-lookin issues in the past... like someone got sick or died or something and they went dark for a very long time.  And, aren't they like 5 whole people?  And, WHY the hell the Pucara?????  Whatever, I don't really see them as a stable investment in DCS... I bet they rake the dough in from P3D.

[hazmatt]

The last couple weeks I dove into the Warbirds of DCS. When I found aces high back in 2000 and played it until 2011 I thought it was the most badass WW2 flight sim ever. I have turned blue in the face promoting Aces High to friends and other gamers for years.


Having typed all that I feel foolish to have ever thought that. Aces High is just another game. It is totally easy mode in comparison. All these statements about the AH flight model are laughable to me after fully going down the DCS Warbird rabbit hole. I have to re-learn every aircrafts limitations all while managing to maintain normal flight without seizing the engine up. In the past I have saw aircraft in Aces High do things that are not possible in real life giving me a Arma/GTA V vibe.

Then I see all these arguments on this BB about " I'll out fly you and everybody else"
In Aces High those people are the Sh*t, but in other games where the modeling is a close to real as you can get those same people would not be the Sh*t. Which is why a lot of them will never play those other games.

Now this has nothing to do with my abilities as a cartoon pilot at all. This is an observation from someone who started in DCS in Helicopters and has now went back to Warbirds.


A week ago in the popular Wolfpack server I was spectating a fight between a 109 and a spit. The 109 for the spit into a situation which caused the spits engine to seize up and allowing the 109 to shoot down the spitfire.

The whole look of DCS warbirds is 150 times better. Going in for a bomb run in a P-51 and the bombs didn't drop because you didn't have the right switch selected is just crazy.


All these threads about not being able to find a good fight
or the HOARDERS keep rolling the other two countries
or Two countries would be so much better


Guess what. In the DCS warbirds server there is

two countries
no base HOARDERS
and plenty of fights.


The only problem is having a good enough machine to play
And actually learning to fly an aircraft.


I am just loving the DCS Warbirds

That's a good write up. Even thought I know IL2 is easymode compared to DCS it's far more complex then AH3 and not just the engine management. Trimming the aircraft based on the speed is very important for example.You are constantly trimming the plane. If you're trimmed for fast, your plane won't turn well slow. If you're trimmed for slow you can't keep the nose down fast. There's no "combat trim" Another is aileron flutter. You can look at your ailerons and see it starting to happen. The spin modeling and the P-factor too. I could go on and on.

Maybe one of these days I'll graduate to DCS but for now I'm very much enjoying IL2. I enjoy it so much that I bought all of the Battle series, Most of the expansion planes except for stuff like the glider. I've bought CLOD and the expansion and I'm waiting for that one to release the B17s and 190s and the VR that's under beta test.

The thing I've noticed about IL2 is that almost every time I log on there's new players or returning players, something that I don't recall seeing on a daily basis in AH for a long time. I do hope that changes. It's good to see some old timers coming back so maybe it's the start of something new.

Another thing that I noticed was there were 2 of us (109s) approaching a spit9 who was a decent pilot I got there first and engaged so the other 109 broke off and let us fight. I I was in an F2 and it was a white knuckled fight which I managed to win in the end. Since we had fought down to the deck he was close to me and quite a bit above when he airstarted. He could have used his alt to dive on me and try to extract his revenge but instead he said "GF" and engaged the other pilot who had been watching. I stayed out of the fight and let them go at it. I really enjoy playing like this and not having to worry about the 500 mph picking pony. Granted this is not the normal scenario type server like combat box.
On the other hand I have fun on those kind of servers too. Nothing like coming up on a gaggle of planes all shooting at each other and trying to figure out who is friendly and enemy as there is no killshooter.

Just my 1 cent that used to be 2 cents due to inflation.

[RichardDarkwood]

That's a good write up. Even thought I know IL2 is easymode compared to DCS it's far more complex then AH3 and not just the engine management. Trimming the aircraft based on the speed is very important for example.You are constantly trimming the plane. If you're trimmed for fast, your plane won't turn well slow. If you're trimmed for slow you can't keep the nose down fast. There's no "combat trim" Another is aileron flutter. You can look at your ailerons and see it starting to happen. The spin modeling and the P-factor too. I could go on and on.

Maybe one of these days I'll graduate to DCS but for now I'm very much enjoying IL2. I enjoy it so much that I bought all of the Battle series, Most of the expansion planes except for stuff like the glider. I've bought CLOD and the expansion and I'm waiting for that one to release the B17s and 190s and the VR that's under beta test.

The thing I've noticed about IL2 is that almost every time I log on there's new players or returning players, something that I don't recall seeing on a daily basis in AH for a long time. I do hope that changes. It's good to see some old timers coming back so maybe it's the start of something new.

Another thing that I noticed was there were 2 of us (109s) approaching a spit9 who was a decent pilot I got there first and engaged so the other 109 broke off and let us fight. I I was in an F2 and it was a white knuckled fight which I managed to win in the end. Since we had fought down to the deck he was close to me and quite a bit above when he airstarted. He could have used his alt to dive on me and try to extract his revenge but instead he said "GF" and engaged the other pilot who had been watching. I stayed out of the fight and let them go at it. I really enjoy playing like this and not having to worry about the 500 mph picking pony. Granted this is not the normal scenario type server like combat box.
On the other hand I have fun on those kind of servers too. Nothing like coming up on a gaggle of planes all shooting at each other and trying to figure out who is friendly and enemy as there is no killshooter.

Just my 1 cent that used to be 2 cents due to inflation.

I don't like the look of iL2.

[GasTeddy]

AH was hard after Warbirds, IL-2 after AH. DCS I may some day try but probably need to upgrade my mill before it. Recommended system requirements are met but mobo and CPU are from 2014, memory DDR3, so I doubt it would rotate properly.

IMHO, line between game and simulator goes in controls. If it can be run with mouse and keyboard, it is on gamish side. Like in IL-2, some servers need joystick, some not. So, it's bit both.

[Tumor]

That's a good write up. Even thought I know IL2 is easymode compared to DCS it's far more complex then AH3 and not just the engine management. Trimming the aircraft based on the speed is very important for example.

I Trim more in DCS than I do in IL-2, it's a constant battle.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it's even more complex than IL2.  I spend as much time adjusting trim as I do gawking at the slip indicator & adjusting rudder(109/190s).  I HATE that the K4's Rudder Trim is mostly your left foot & it's constant.  It's why I wish for (and am flabbergasted that nobody has done any) other 109 models... that freekin TORQUE!  The other Germybirds don't have rudder/aileron trim(unless there's something I don't know) either, but it's not near as bad an issue in flight. 

I'm way past engine management at this point.  Once you get the basic pressure/rpms & cooler/flap stuff down, it's not a big deal. I made kneeboard cards with all the basic info needed for each Warbird... but, I still tend to keep the appropriate Guide from Chuck open on my other monitor, just in case.  It's still easy to find me looping over a field over and over trying to get a bomb to let the hell go.  And, there's subtle differences regarding controls, for example, you have to map the gun-safety in the 109 and A8, but not the D9 (its there, but it's auto), and that can be a high source of irritation when you fly all 3 a lot. 

Darkwood was spot on in his assessment about DCS, IL2 can give you eye strain.  Each have pros & cons, and I can't say I prefer one over the other.  I flip-flop through phases lasting about 6mo between the two.  IL2 is fun as hell for making films, but their Mission Editor is a major PITA.  DCS is good for that too, and their Mission Editor is super easy, but making a vid ~at all~ of Multiplayer is frightfully difficult.  I don't know the major DCS Youtubers do it (or even if they do now that I think about it), because getting a mission-track to retain all the happenings is (for me) down to pure luck-of-the-draw.  It used to work fine.  Then it didn't.  Then they broke it.  Then they fixed it.  Then they broke it.  Tricker has a method that worked for awhile a few years ago... now? Not so much.  SP works fine though.

Both are equally great & painful on any given day.  AH was King for a good long time... and considering whos, hows & whys, it will always be the best there ever was as a whole.  No offense to Air Warrior, it was awesome too, but for bigly different reasons.

[AKIron]

If you ever flown single engine light planes you know you must trim for every flight configuration change, unless you want to fight the controls. The more basic models have a manual trim. Fancier have powered trim.

[AKIron]

Mission Editor is super easy, but making a vid ~at all~ of Multiplayer is frightfully difficult.  I don't know the major DCS Youtubers do it (or even if they do now that I think about it), because getting a mission-track to retain all the happenings is (for me) down to pure luck-of-the-draw.  It used to work fine.  Then it didn't.  Then they broke it.  Then they fixed it.  Then they broke it.  Tricker has a method that worked for awhile a few years ago... now? Not so much.  SP works fine though.

Supposedly one of the last patches has improved the mission-track recording. I generally record live so can't confirm this. I did use some excerpts from a 30 minute multiplayer mission track recently and they remained accurate.

Something I learned the hard way a while back. If you are making an instructional video and enable the active pause you are still burning fuel at whatever rate your throttle is set for.

[CptTrips]

AH was hard after Warbirds, IL-2 after AH. DCS I may some day try but probably need to upgrade my mill before it. Recommended system requirements are met but mobo and CPU are from 2014, memory DDR3, so I doubt it would rotate properly.

IMHO, line between game and simulator goes in controls. If it can be run with mouse and keyboard, it is on gamish side. Like in IL-2, some servers need joystick, some not. So, it's bit both.

DCS is a resource hog.  No doubt about it.

Have you tried since they got multi-threading smoothed out?  That seems to have been a big help for some with marginal systems.
Vulkan is supposed to help further someday.

I have no doubt that Hitech could add this extra levels of complexity and fidelity.  I think the choice is intentional and not necessarily wrong.  Here is a graphic of how I see the market (IMHO):



I think the position HTC chose on the fidelity spectrum is a nice compromise for a large chuck of the potential market.  There are lot of players that would be a sweet-spot for.

There are always going to be more pure casual players on the game end.  Way less on the fetish fidelity end.  However there is also the variable of what percentage of the potential is being captured.

WT has a large potential as very approachable by a wide range of casual gamers.  And it captures near 100% of that larger market.  So yeah, they are just printing money.

DCS has a much smaller potential market that want the level of simulation pain.   But they capture 100% of it.  SO they are making money.

I think IL2 would do better if they weren't so Russian\Eastern Front oriented.

I think the AH fidelity sweet-spot has a large potential market, but HTC is capturing very little of the potential.  IMHO monetization model, graphics and to some extend lack of SP hold it back.

Now from this is might seem I'm suggesting that IL2 makes more money than DCS, but there is another curve not shown here and that is revenue from military trainer contracts.  WT, AH, and IL2 have nothing there and I suspect it is a large portion of DCS' revenue.  So I think DCS overall makes more than IL2, but nobody makes more than The Snail™.  And everyone makes more than AH.

All of this is just my opinion of course and I could be full of it.

[hazmatt]

I don't like the look of iL2.

As in the graphics? Can you be more specific? I haven't spent much time in DCS so I don't really understand what you mean.

[hazmatt]

AH was hard after Warbirds, IL-2 after AH. DCS I may some day try but probably need to upgrade my mill before it. Recommended system requirements are met but mobo and CPU are from 2014, memory DDR3, so I doubt it would rotate properly.

IMHO, line between game and simulator goes in controls. If it can be run with mouse and keyboard, it is on gamish side. Like in IL-2, some servers need joystick, some not. So, it's bit both.

I agree. Some of the IL2 servers have no icons, and you have to navigate without an icon on the map while others have both. I like the ones with icons and airstarts if I only have a limited amount of time and want to get into a fight quick. On those servers the time from clicking start to being in a fight is usually less then 5 minutes. On the other hand the more "scenario" based servers you can fly to a target and back without an enemy ever seeing you. (if you get lucky) or you can get bounced by 10 enemy planes you never saw coming.

There was a funny one yesterday when I was playing on combat box. There was a guy yelling on country for help because 4 110s were chasing him and he'd taken engine damage on a bombing run and wasn't sure if he could outrun them. lol!

[Tumor]

As in the graphics? Can you be more specific? I haven't spent much time in DCS so I don't really understand what you mean.

For me, it's the ever present haze-look, even when it's sunny, at Noon.  You can adjust it to a point, but it's always there.  Oh, and I forgot to mention earlier... I wouldn't consider IL2 "easy mode" at all.

[hazmatt]

DCS is a resource hog.  No doubt about it.

Have you tried since they got multi-threading smoothed out?  That seems to have been a big help for some with marginal systems.
Vulkan is supposed to help further someday.

I have no doubt that Hitech could add this extra levels of complexity and fidelity.  I think the choice is intentional and not necessarily wrong.  Here is a graphic of how I see the market (IMHO):

(Image removed from quote.)

I think the position HTC chose on the fidelity spectrum is a nice compromise for a large chuck of the potential market.  There are lot of players that would be a sweet-spot for.

There are always going to be more pure casual players on the game end.  Way less on the fetish fidelity end.  However there is also the variable of what percentage of the potential is being captured.

WT has a large potential as very approachable by a wide range of casual gamers.  And it captures near 100% of that larger market.  So yeah, they are just printing money.

DCS has a much smaller potential market that want the level of simulation pain.   But they capture 100% of it.  SO they are making money.

I think IL2 would do better if they weren't so Russian\Eastern Front oriented.

I think the AH fidelity sweet-spot has a large potential market, but HTC is capturing very little of the potential.  IMHO monetization model, graphics and to some extend lack of SP hold it back.

Now from this is might seem I'm suggesting that IL2 makes more money than DCS, but there is another curve not shown here and that is revenue from military trainer contracts.  WT, AH, and IL2 have nothing there and I suspect it is a large portion of DCS' revenue.  So I think DCS overall makes more than IL2, but nobody makes more than The Snail™.  And everyone makes more than AH.

All of this is just my opinion of course and I could be full of it.

Makes sense. I think you're right that IL2 and AH3 could both grab a bunch more of the market share but they both have their challenges.
I think a couple of the setbacks for IL2 are it's clumsy UI and that they seem to spend a bunch of time and effort on stuff that is not readily obvious. I mean that if the engine in my plane takes a hit and the performance is reduced the result is the same as them programming that the bullet hit the 5th spark plug on the engine or knocked the drive belt off the supercharger. I wish they would spend that effort on stuff that everyone sees like the UI. (there is no reason I should have to completely exit the game and wait for it to reload to switch user accounts from the login screen)

[hazmatt]

For me, it's the ever present haze-look, even when it's sunny, at Noon.  You can adjust it to a point, but it's always there.  Oh, and I forgot to mention earlier... I wouldn't consider IL2 "easy mode" at all.

Right. It reminds me of when I used to live by the ocean the almost ever present marine layer. I have noticed it now that you mention it.

I opened my canopy the other day and got water on my goggles. That was an interesting experience. Not sure if it was from my damaged engine or what.

[RichardDarkwood]

As in the graphics? Can you be more specific? I haven't spent much time in DCS so I don't really understand what you mean.

Everything about it.