E vs C

[Kieran]

Blood represents life; that blood was sacrificed was part of the atonement for sin provided for by the Law. It is clear that man is fallible, even the most atheistic would agree. So, under the Law, man could make atonement for his sins by sacrificing blood (animal). Human sacrifice was not included and was detestable.

Not just any animal would do. The animal was to be pure, without blemish. It had to be prepared in a specific manner, and offered in a specific place. It was expected the man would select his animal from the very finest of his stock- thereby showing his respect for God and recognizing without God he would have no animals at all.

The parallel to Jesus is therefore clear- the one person who walked the earth without sin, the "perfect lamb, without blemish". Jesus was the very best God could offer, a sacrifice of His own son. Through the sacrifice of his blood, mankind's sins were absolved and salvation was possible. After such a sacrifice, no pitiful animal could ever compare. In that move the circle was closed: man fell from grace, failed in the Law, saved through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, given the responsibility to spread the faith and bolstered by the Holy Spirit.

Animal sacrifices are no longer necessary as they no longer serve the same purpose. Jesus said, "I am the way". No animal sacrifice can help you atone for your sins, or will get you into heaven. Only Jesus can do that.

[Kieran]

On the surface it looks as though God did murder his son. But wait, what's this? Jesus rose from the dead? That's the other part of the message; the body means nothing, only the spirit matters, and for those that believe, the spirit resides with God forever. Jesus served as an example for us that death has no hold on God. In that way, His death in such a public and  painful way was absolutely necessary.

You see, suffering is a part of our existance. It is a part we earned when we fell from grace. God does not promise the road will be easy, in fact, He warns it will be very hard. Good people are going to get sick and die. Disasters will claim the innocent. The weak will be trampled by the strong- we see it all the time. The hard thing is keeping the faith that all of this is temporal, yet the spirit is eternal. As difficult as it is for all of us we have to always keep an eye to forever and realize what happens to us here will be nothing but a faded memory in eternity.

The major consistency of the Bible is to turn your thoughts from yourself and to think of others, focusing first on God, then your fellow man. Denial of self is the cornerstone of most religions, in fact. Mind control? Maybe. But we are warned to watch for false prophets that will lead us away from God's word, or to do things He would never have us do. This is where it is incumbent upon us all to learn all we can in order to discern the truth from the lies. Yes, it is ok to be a Christian and to use your brains, too.

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Kieran
Until your heart is ready for the message it will be nonsense to you.

wow straight off the pamphlet!

thanks for summing up succintly what i hate about christianity: if you don't agree with the message then it is some failing in you. when you are thinking straight it'll all make sense.

you say you are a baptist with emphasis and i guarantee a lutheran or a catholic would do the same thing.

there's even division within your religion and often violence too n. ireland

not a very strong or consistent message if you all can't agree on it eh?

of course someday when i wise up it'll all make sense - until then i'll stick to logic thanks.

[Kieran]

Your standard reply comes right from the stock quotes as well- you didn't invent fire. FWIW, nothing is wrong  with you except you don't choose to listen.

Your dislike for me personally is well-documented. Sorry you feel that way, but if you can come in with the anti-religion dogma, spouting your words as if saying them made them fact, then I guess I am entitled to say my piece, too.

I don't know what happened in your religious upbringing that has made you so virolently anti-religious, but that is the way you come off to me. You seem to just be excessively angry at the mere mention of the word- or do I read your message wrong?

BTW, you ever heard of Zeno's Paradox? Goes something like this...

A runner wants to run a certain distance - let us say 100 meters - in a finite time. But to reach the 100-meter mark, the runner must first reach the 50-meter mark, and to reach that, the runner must first run 25 meters. But to do that, he or she must first run 12.5 meters.

Since space is infinitely divisible, we can repeat these 'requirements' forever. Thus the runner has to reach an infinite number of 'midpoints' in a finite time. This is impossible, so the runner can never reach his goal. In general, anyone who wants to move from one point to another must meet these requirements, and so motion is impossible, and what we perceive as motion is merely an illusion.

The fact is I could probably, with enough effort, poke holes in all the proof you could provide for any explanation of the creation of the universe. Take the make-up of a star, for instance. How do we know what makes one? How do we know the sun is a ball of hydrogen gas? Has anyone ever been there? Has any probe gone and returned with samples? No? Then how do we know? We don't. We have faith in our scientist when they say they have "proof". Therein is the prob, though; "proving" in science often means you convince other scientists to agree with you.

There's even division amongst your scientists over what killed the dinosaurs. Not a very strong or consistent message if you all can't agree on it eh?


FWIW, where there are people there is violence. That is human nature, not religion's fault, and you'd be a fool to suggest wiping out religion will end violence on earth.

Edited for a clearer example of Zeno's Paradox.

[mrfish]

real (as in not the discovery channel)science doesn't offer a final answer only a guide and method for the search.

conclusions are subject to change and are only as good as their ability to withstand trial.

cs pierce called it a "sustain systemic doubt" in otherwords you keep your mind open and accept new possibilities as they arise.

religion has the answers case closed. no room for questions. it cant withstand 4 seconds of trial yet you should believe it anyway.

it is childlike and evergreen and fits awkwardly into an evolving world where people arent as desperate and uneducated as the days when people believed burning bush stories and worshiped figurines.

scientists are a lot more civilized over disagreements....when's the last time a scientific argument erupted into gunfire? find any examples on google - if you did how many? is it common? how about compared to religious violence?

all you have to do if you dont like a scientific principal is disprove it - religion has no failsafe. its childlike notions of the universe are set in stone, forever relying on magic and nonsense to explain difficult or uncomfortable ideas.

when's the last time scientists that believed one thing decided to cleanse the world of those who didn't?

your silly paradox only exists because of our understanding of math. it is a language and like a language can never completely convey a cnocept.

any number can be divided therefore you can make a mathematical argument that you could never get anywhere.

a better understanding of math would eliminate the paradox altogether because as we can all see experientially - you can get where you are going.

science never pretends to be the full explanation - einsteins laws modified newtons and some day his will be modified as well....science offers a progressively clearer picture of the world. religion offers campfire stories and a reason to distance yourself from your neighbor...

if you are unhappy with the result that stars are largely hydrogen then i suggest you familiarize yourself with spectral analysis.

there arent any ghosts miracles or animal sacrifices or arbitrary laws about chopping your noodle... but it is still quite interesting.

nothing "happened" to me because agnosticism isnt a dysfunction or a failing it is just what happens when you decide to lose your childish fear of hell and really look at christianity for what it is.

a mess.

people are indoctrinated as  kids or in times of weakness and never question it....if you did would you still find it sensible???

whatever floats your boat i guess.

[Kieran]

Yes, I am familiar with spectral analysis. I recognize Zeno's Paradox isn't a "truth". I understand science beyond the Discovery Channel. Thanks for the appraisal nonetheless.

If you are going to prove science is more consistant than religion, you'll have to do much better. All you have proven so far is history can be rewritten when a new theory arises.

I forgot, what minister invented the atomic bomb? Which nun invented germ warfare? Oh, wait, these were scientists, weren't they? You look it up on Google if you like. While you are looking, see if it was a monk that invented machine guns, assault rifles, and tanks.

Your continued assertation religion has sparked war is true to a point, but it is by no means the sole purpose for wars. Most wars are in fact originated in disputes over resources or land. Should we dissolve all borders and boundaries and become one world country- that would after all eliminate border disputes, wouldn't it?

You're going to have to do better than that.

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Kieran
Should we dissolve all borders and boundaries and become one world country- that would after all eliminate border disputes, wouldn't it?

good idea!

[Kieran]

I was raised in a family of atheists. I came to religion in my early thirties (which interestingly you managed to turn into an insult the last time I mentioned it). Funny, I have never been more at peace with myself and the world around me. I can still read the same newspapers, technical journals, and political rags and I still have full use of my faculties when doing so. I don't find myself conflicted in understanding the scientific reasoning behind a particular theory or concept whether it agrees with my religion or not.

Getting religion does not equate getting a lobotomy.

[mrsid2]

Returning to my original question, doesn't blood sacrifices sound paganic to you?

Who defines sin? God. Who do you answer for those sins for? God. That leaves the question why did his son have to die for our sins. There simply is no logic folks.

If God is the one demanding a blood sacrifice, he would not send his son to die to pleace his own demands. Thats a contradiction in terms! And what happened to the sacfrifices anyway, nobody does them anymore - and even if did they'd be put to jail probably or an asylum.

Just face it, it was an ancient ritual taken from the earlier religions. People made ritual sacrifices because it was the habit of the time. Also I'm pretty sure the sacrificed meat (not Jesus's I hope ) was consumed by the priests, that's why there were strict rules how you must prepare the meat for sacrifice (lightly grilled, some salt and pepper and some herbs, thanks)

As what goes for Jesus, he was murdered for political reasons. The jews then made up the story, digged out his body and spread the word. Jesus became a martyr just like the small palestinian boy that the Israeli security guards shot dead in front of his fathers eyes. The terrorists that crashed WTC are martyrs in the eyes of the Taleban supporters. In their minds they now spend luxury time in heaven with 7 virgins at their use.

I think the bottom point is that in order to accept religion, a person must make a decision to abandon all logic in order to relieve stress from himself. It's an easy escape to start believing in the supernatural and that some higher force is guiding us through, instead of being responsible for your actions alone.

Guilt plays a big part in christianity. People feel dirty and sinful, they must make sacrifices and suffer because of their sins.. That's just some sort of masochism. Why would God want you to suffer? He was the one who created you as you are. You are His picture. Surely he wouldn't want you to suffer, unless he wasn't perfect Himself either and wanted to punish YOU for his own imperfections. Another thing that does not, folks, make any logic.

I say look yourselves in the mirror. Keep an honest mind. Answer to yourselves to keep a clear heart. You can do that without God - and still be a good person. I was raised to value many of the same things I can see are taught in the Bible.. They're good advice and I can see the wisdom behind it.

It's just so that I make my own way. I make my own decisions. I don't need superstitious delusions to get through my daily life, and I'm happy. My grandparents are religious people, and when I was a child they were telling me stories about Jesus, God and religion. I listened, but never really took them seriously.. As I grew older I could see more and more facts that talked against the whole thing.

OTOH I've prayed in dire situations.. The way I see it, if you have nothing to lose, you have nothing to lose.

But things have to be pretty friggin bad before I start grasping the unknown. Like drowning.

[Creamo]

That was moronic Mrtard2.

Please be entertaining like Fish.

[mrsid2]

Mr Creamhead, you have to come up with better arguments than that if you want to take part in the discussion. Shoo.

[Creamo]

Your repeating yourself.

[mrsid2]

Only because nobody could yet give any answer to the questions I layed. I guess that's because they can't.

Either they haven't taken the time to think about the issues, or they surrendered to the fact that having a religious belief simply carries no logic.

[Gunthr]

MrSid2, you need a vacation, like 2 weeks up in the Mir station, just you and the universe ...

[Samm]

Religion's purpose is to try and answer why there is life and why there is a universe, not how . When a religion begins to tell people how things came into being then it becomes a mythology .
Trying to reason with anyone who has "faith" in a religion, regime, or government is a waste of time  . I've never understood what drives intelligent people to fanaticism . Luckily I've never come into its grasp . The world is full of people killing or dying and taking their beliefs to the grave with them, however wrong they are .