Author Topic: Problems and Solutions for the Main Arena:  (Read 3411 times)

Offline Preon1

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Problems and Solutions for the Main Arena:
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2002, 12:20:10 PM »
HERE HERE, Eskimo!

I don't fly in the MA anymore because it SUCKS!  There's no point because all I can do is jump in some kind of fighter and join a furball.  That gets REAL boring REAL quick.  I don't care if my kill ratio is 0:10 or 10:0.  In the end it's doing the same thing EVERY SINGLE MISSION.  Perhaps the MA should be renamed to the FA.  That way people who simply want fighter combat will know where to go for their Aces High deathmatch.

Unless something changes, I'm definately sticking to the CT.  There may be fewer people, but at least they're wargamers.

Offline Vortex

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« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2002, 12:26:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu


*snip*

The sad thing is that everyone looks to HTC for the solution.  How are they supposed to solve a problem so deeply rooted in the players?  How are they supposed to create a gaming environment that does everything for everyone without leaving anyone out?  They don't.  

They created an environment with so many possibilities that virtually everyone can find something they enjoy doing.  Unfortunately, so few people enjoy doing the same thing that any group effort required goal is going to bump into issues.  THAT is the problem.  Its not HTC's doing or responsibility to fix.

The strat options are there.  We don't want that because it requires too much coordination.  The furballing is there, but we don't want that because it sucks valuable resources from the strat game that we don't want to bother to coordinate.

*snip*

AKDejaVu


True. Although I think there is a line that's being crossed with AH. Its the first game of this sort that's travelled this far down the strategic road. I think its presently at the point where moves in one direction of the other (enhance strategic aspects, or pull away from them) have a pretty difinite effect on the other aspect of the game...the fast furballs. When you do look at these proposals in every case enhancing one aspects directly degrades the other. Granted many argue that eskimo's proposal doesn't effect furballing but its pretty clear to me it certainly would, pretty substantially.

I really do think the best solution for HTC is to provide a base level of separation to the two main styles of play; furballing and strat. That's not to say make them exclusive of the other, only provide a layout where you can tweak each to maximize that portion of the game, and do it all in the same arena. It would be extremely easy to do as well. Take the furballing portion of the map from the Dueling Terrain and paste it off in the corner of each MA map we currently rotate through. Make it 15 or so ocean sectors away from the nearest land point so there's good separation from the primary terrain. Make the 3 bases there uncapturable and undestroyable, including ack. Allow no GV spawns.

Presto, there's your persistant furball area for those that just want to up for some quick fights and be done with it. Uncapturable fields makes it so you will always have a place to t/o. No GV spawns keeps the fights airborn. And the remote location prevents any overlap with the activities in the primary terrain.

The primary map you can now tweak more to the strategic flavours outlined by eskimo and others here. That's not to say that furballing will be completely destroyed there, only that with the furballing fields in each map you need not let that part of the game be a determining factor for this configuration. Tailor the main map directly to the strategic vision of the game as mentioned in some of the posts here.  

The best part of it all is that you keep everything in one arena thereby keeping the community aspect together. At the same time you maximize the appeal to all sides involved. Once done I think AH would become infinitely more flexible, and enjoyable, as a game both for us as players and HTC as designers.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2002, 12:29:44 PM by Vortex »
--)-Vortex----
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Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2002, 05:01:59 PM »
One Comment:

I don't like the marriage of ships in the Task Groups.  

If I were carrier task group commander, I'm damn sure not going to risk my carrier unless I have too.  If I need a battleship to shell the shoreline, I am not going to let my carrier become venerable.

If the battleship task group commander wants to seperate from the aircraft umbrella of the carrier, give them  the option.  Just don't require the carrier to stay with it and be dragged into the mire.

Seperate Task Groups

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2002, 09:41:52 AM »
I got no problem with "lazhole".   It fits.   especially when some little chest pounding (you will hurt yourself blubber boy) twerp is trying to make it difficult for me to enjoy something I like.   It helps if (as in this case) he is wrong.

beetle..  yeah, we get it... "for our own good" ...  What kinda little socialist thinks he knows what is best for everyone when everyone is allready clearly doing what they enjoy?   read deja and read vortex if you can't/won't read what I say...  Oh, and slaming a petulant and pompous  ripsnore is a public service.   I probly have saved us all the agony of at least 3 or 4 more lines he woulda added to his sig by now.

problem with any complex strat is that it takes so long to implement that the casual player get's nothing from it.   closer and more easily captured fields are more suited to said player.   finding out that someone just organized a milkrun/gangbang that killed the radar or whatever just before you came on and lasts till jyu get off is just as unfun as being involved in the boring waste of time in the first place.   I think most guys want to fight.

lazs
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Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2002, 11:23:46 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Preon1
Unless something changes, I'm definately sticking to the CT.  There may be fewer people, but at least they're wargamers.


Um....well....not all of them.....

- oldman

Offline Preon1

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« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2002, 11:28:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731


Um....well....not all of them.....

- oldman


fine oldman...  then there's a higher percentage of wargamers in the CT and a MUCH LOWER percentage of people whining about bombers and sneak attacks ruining their fun.

would you agree with that?

Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2002, 11:38:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Preon1
fine oldman...  then there's a higher percentage of wargamers in the CT and a MUCH LOWER percentage of people whining about bombers and sneak attacks ruining their fun.

would you agree with that?


I'm really not qualified to express much of an opinion, because I haven't got that many hours into either arena.  But, I'd agree that there's not a lot of whining in CT.  Very pleasant.  I suspect the crowd is older there.  On the other hand, if I were going to whine about something, bombers sneaking in to pork a base would be one of the main things I would whine about.

- oldman

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2002, 11:39:55 AM »
No Preon.

Try to find a fight sometime when there's only 6 people on-line.. and 5 of them are just trying to sneak undefended fields.

Its the MA..  just on a smaller scale and having more historic matchups.

AKDejaVu

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #68 on: February 18, 2002, 11:49:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
But, I'd agree that there's not a lot of whining in CT.  Very pleasant.  I suspect the crowd is older there.


I'd have to disagree about the lack of whining in the CT.  I flew there for a bit last week and encountered almost non-stop whining.  First it was whining about how I always had alt (I was in a 109G10... shocker that I'd have alt even if we all took off at the same time).  Then whining about how I always gangbanged (funny since the one accusing me of that had been roped by me while three enemies tried climbing up my tailpipe).  Then whining that I was attacking people just up from a base... then whining that I wasn't letting people get enough alt...

I mean, come on.  Enough already.  The whining only stopped once the whiners started appearing with numbers and alt.  Then the whines of "unfair" changed to clever barbs like, "Aha! My lone, high Spit IX has made both your 190 and 109 run for ack cover!  Sad!!!"

I'll give the CT the benefit of the doubt by assuming that such whining is not the norm.  And despite it, I really did have some enjoyable fights.  However, I advise caution when hawking the CT as whine-free.

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Offline Shane

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« Reply #69 on: February 18, 2002, 12:14:26 PM »
HBlair must not have been in the arena at that time.

:D ;)
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
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Offline Oldman731

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« Reply #70 on: February 18, 2002, 12:29:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shane
HBlair must not have been in the arena at that time.
:D ;)


Stop it!  Stop it!  Get back in your cage!  Now!

Sorry, folks, someone must have forgotten to close the latch.  Move along, move along.  Nothing for you here.

- oldman

Offline Sabre

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« Reply #71 on: February 18, 2002, 01:24:04 PM »
Having been a CM and now an arena moderator (CT Team), I have just a little clue of how difficult a task HTC faces in trying to please such a diverse crowd as this community.  The idea expressed above of having a small section of the MA terrain set aside for the furball crowd is an interesting concept, but I have a sneaky suspicion that that section of the terrain would be relatively void of players (as the Dueling arena has been).  My opinion (and it’s just that) is that both camps can’t really exist without the other (pretty “Zen,” eh?:)).

With few exceptions, furballs start when one or more pilots head to an enemy base with the idea of capturing it.  The strat-players are in effect the catalysts that spawn those furballs some love so much.  They are the grain of sand at the center of the giant snowball.  I don’t know which group is the majority (furballers or strat-guys), let alone how big that majority is.  I do know at the core of my being that unless AH manages to strike a balance to keep both these often fractious groups happy and in the arena, the game will wither and die.  Like the gladiatorial games of ancient Rome or the NFL of today, there has to be a point to the contest besides simple personal glory.  Imagine what would happen to professional sports if it were suddenly decided to do away with score keeping and team rankings?  Likewise, without a significant number of players who want to have an exiting fight (without necessarily being concerned about the overall progress of the war), there would not be sufficient counter-force to challenge the strat-crowd.  Just as purposeless furballing eventually becomes boring, so to does milk-running against undefended bases and strat targets.  Successfully pulling off a surprise capture in a crowded arena can be fulfilling…doing it at 0300 when there are no enemies to fool or surprise is meaningless to me.

You have to ask yourself, if base capture and strat are unnecessary, why have they been a part of every successful on-line flight sim to date?  Why have strategic elements been a core feature of every successful off-line flight sim to date?  Aces High is not about dog fighting (again, my opinion); it’s about WWII air combat, which runs the gambit from strategic bombing and defense to ground-attack, to (yes, even) dog fighting.  It also throws in some ground and naval elements, because they are a large part of why those WWII air forces existed.  Indeed, the only reason air forces exist at all is because of the desire for or threat of strategic attack (or to support ground or naval forced engaged in strategic attack or defense).

All this leads me to the conclusion that the current strategic system (the heart of this game, if you support my musings above) is currently flawed and unfulfilling.  Unless it is given greater impact on “the War” in the MA, the MA itself will not hold the interests of a majority of the community for any great length of time.  As such, I find many of the suggestions made by Eskimo and others above to be worthy of serious consideration.

Sabre
CT Team

P.S.  Regarding the suggestion made about separating the big-guns from the CV fleet, that is exactly the set up right now in the CT.  There are CV fleets without cruisers and cruiser fleets without CVs; the CV fleets can’t spawn LVTs but the cruiser fleets can.  It should be interesting to see how it plays out.
Sabre
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Offline Shane

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« Reply #72 on: February 18, 2002, 01:36:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
now an arena moderator (CT Team),  


wazzat?
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798
Truth doesn't need exaggeration.

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #73 on: February 18, 2002, 01:43:22 PM »
Somone you should be nice in front of :D
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Offline Sabre

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« Reply #74 on: February 18, 2002, 03:04:07 PM »
LOL, Dead:)  Nah...I've got pretty thick skin, actually.  Shane, I'm on the CT Staff.  We come up with new set-ups, set them up in the CT arena, and adjust it as circumtances and feedback dictate.

The current CT Team consists of myself, Hblair, Brady, and (currently on leave of absence) Buzzbait.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."