P47 vrs SpitIX

[Am0n]

Only situation i have a sevre problem with is battling a co-alt or ecspecaily a ALT superior SpitIX in my p47.

What would be the way to appraoch this situation for the p47?

lets say p47(cruising speed of 250) @ 10k, spits @ 12-13k.


Only thing ive found to be effective is explioting the high rollrate of the p47 at high speeds, but that seems to only make my death more prolonged. i can loose them from diving, roll right faking a bank (for example), roll left and barrel roll,  but he will eventauly work his way back to superior position.

thanks in advance, hopefully i'll be seeing some of you up soon!

**EDIT**

BTW, im also open to sugestions on fighting a YAK in the given situation, my current tactic is to hope that he is REAL low on ammo lol (not a very effective one i should add)

[Drex]

Let me go through some films, and see if I have one within the attached file limit.

Drex

[Am0n]

If you could that would be awesome, film is the most helpful tool ive found in AH.

thanks again

[Lephturn]

Well, the Spit IX it's possible to escape from.  Yes, you must be careful how you do it, but you can.  The Yak is your toughest enemy, because you can't run from him... he'll get you.

First... you never want to be in a disadvantaged position versus these planes.  They are just overall very dangerous to a jug pilot, and although you can fight them if you have an advantage, you don't want to have to face them from a disadvantage.  Given equal pilots in the setup you mention, the Jug pilot will lose eventually.

But, what can you do if you weren't dilligent enough with your SA and you get in this situation?  Well, it depends on the setup really, but basically you have to wait for him to attack you.  You'll want to ensure you are flying around 250 Mph so you have lots of speed to work with for evasives.  A shallow dive as he comes in is often good, because it will increase his speed as he attacks, and you can use that to your advantage.  Given that you have enough speed to work with, you are going to have to try and force an overshoot.  Luckily, the P47 can scrub speed much faster than the Spit IX or the Yak, and that's the advantage you need to work with.  It will depend on how smart the attacker is, but the basic idea will be to use some sort of a break turn or barrel roll to defeat his guns solution and try and make him overshoot.  Use maneuvers that will increase his angle off as he attacks (break into him) and try to keep as much speed as you can.  If he avoids the overshoot and goes up where you can't follow him, you'll have to 0G dive and gain speed again and wait for the next pass.  If he overshoots, roll onto his tail and gun his brains out.  The minute he pulls out of range of your guns, if he is headed upwards break off and 0G dive for speed again, resist the temptation to follow him upwards if he has more energy and you can't gun him down before you stall.  Try to maintain at least 200 Mph at all times so you have enough speed to maneuver defensively.  If he does overshoot though, you may be able to use flaps and the Jug's good low speed handling to make the shot and end the fight right there.  Just be ready and time it right... and don't miss.

Drex has some really really nice moves to force the overshoot.  Hopefully he'll put up a film that demonstrates them.  If not, maybe he'll make a comment about it.

[aknimitz]

Heya Drex,

I have a website I can post films at if you wanna email 'em to me (if they are too big for the file limit here).  Email is nimitz@huckabay.net

Amon, in that situation, if you choose to fight and not run, there is one move that I like to use.  Since many Spit IX pilots are new and young AH pilots, it works particularly well with them.  What I like to do is pull the Spit IX in fast, and use my roll and good instantenous turn to gain quick angles for a snapshot.  The way I go about this is I get my speed to around 250 ... and hold it there.  The Spit when he sees a jug low will start to salivate ... looking for an easy kill.  Down he comes ... I fly nice and straight for him, watching.  As he gets to about d1.5 or so, I will start a gradual, low-G turn (left or right, we'll say right in this example).  Watch for the spit to take lead pursuit (and he will).  Once the Spit commits to lead pursuit, start to tighten that turn up ... tighter and tighter as the spit closes.  Just as the Spit is in guns range, reverse hard left and UP at about 45 degrees.  WATCH for tracers and dont lose sight of the spit.  He will likely be about to pass UNDER you from your low 5 OC, but he'll still be pretty quick.  Get ready to roll down and take a snapshot.  As the spit overshoots, and after your shot, disengage and setup another attack.

Hope this helps...

Nim
Nim

[Lephturn]

Nice description Nimitz.

If I remember right, this is very similar to the move Drex uses quite a bit.  It's quite effective against spits as well due to their great E retention, they don't tend to slow down much in the turn and they'll overshoot much of the time.

[Nifty]

This is why I hardly ever lead turn if I've got the E-advantage in a Spit.    From the attacker's point of view in this situation, keeping AOT (angle off tail) to a minimum is the way to stick on the defender's 6.  What Nim describes increases AOT for the attack as he pulls the lead turn.   This helps force a) the overshoot and b) the attacker losing sight of you under his nose due to the bank of the turn.

Fortunately, few TnB pilots are going to stay in a pure or lag pursuit against a larger plane.  They know they can out turn you, so that's what they're going to try and do to setup the shot.

What I like to do if I'm in the attacking situation and the defender does what Nim describes is to just follow the low G turn, usually, taking it a little wider if the defender tightens it.  By maintaining my speed, I can do the wider turn faster than the defender is doing his tighter turn.  Also, the defender will lose sight of me, and he's well in my field of vision.   I'm gonna get a good shot out of this, unless the defender is savvy and reverses the turn quickly, and we're now looking at a possible scissors attempt, which is another post in itself!  

Point I'm trying to make is be prepared for the attacker to do something different than the last attacker did.  Chances are they will pull lead turn, but it's possible that Leviathn or SirLoin is in that Spit, in which case, they just might not pull lead.  

[aknimitz]

99% of the spit pilots will pull lead.  I never have to worry abuot Levy ... he's a spit V and we're talkin' about spit IX.  

If the Spit 9 does not take lead, then the jug is fediddleed.  A patient spit 9 stick with E should beat the pants off the jug everytime.

Nim

[Lephturn]

If you are fighting a Spit pilot from a position of disadvantage, and that Spit pilot is sharp enough to fly the Spit (either one) as an E fighter, you are likely already dead.  The Spit is one of the best E fighters in the game.  If you try this move and he drops into lag pursuit and waits... run like heck towards friends at the first opportunity, because he's not going to make the normal mistake.

[GeeWally]

I tried this manuever after I read it in your message about "what to do in this situation" and it does work.  I'm a below average fighter pilot too.  The times I tried it, I never actually shot anyone down, but they always ended up below and in front of me.

My turns are kind of sloppy so I never was able to point my plane to shoot, but at least they weren't on my six anymore.  Thanks for the help.

GeeWally

Originally posted by aknimitz
Heya Drex,

Amon, in that situation, if you choose to fight and not run, there is one move that I like to use.  Since many Spit IX pilots are new and young AH pilots, it works particularly well with them.  What I like to do is pull the Spit IX in fast, and use my roll and good instantenous turn to gain quick angles for a snapshot.  The way I go about this is I get my speed to around 250 ... and hold it there.  The Spit when he sees a jug low will start to salivate ... looking for an easy kill.  Down he comes ... I fly nice and straight for him, watching.  As he gets to about d1.5 or so, I will start a gradual, low-G turn (left or right, we'll say right in this example).  Watch for the spit to take lead pursuit (and he will).  Once the Spit commits to lead pursuit, start to tighten that turn up ... tighter and tighter as the spit closes.  Just as the Spit is in guns range, reverse hard left and UP at about 45 degrees.  WATCH for tracers and dont lose sight of the spit.  He will likely be about to pass UNDER you from your low 5 OC, but he'll still be pretty quick.  Get ready to roll down and take a snapshot.  As the spit overshoots, and after your shot, disengage and setup another attack.

Hope this helps...

Nim
Nim

[majic]

Umm...could I get a definition of lag turn and lead turn...so i can tell whether I'm doing it right?

[aknimitz]

Hiyas Majic,

I'll do my best to explain, but Drex or Andy could do a much better job that I.

A lead turn is a turn wherein you point the nose of your aircraft ahead of the nme plane you are chasing so as to gain angles and close the distance.  It is an agressive maneuver, and typically can be taken advantage of by a skilled nme.

A lag turn is exactly the opposite.  Instead of point your nose AHEAD of the nme to attempt to CLOSE the distance, you put the nose of your plane BEHIND the nme, and try to MAINTAIN distance.  It is a much more patient maneuver, and is used to kinda keep the nme on a leash so to speak.  

However, a lag turn can be in effect a disengaging maneuver if you are not careful.  Lets say you are a Spit 9 and there is an La5 ahead of you, 1.2.  The la5 is in a low-G turn, and you have a bit of E and could sweep in and take a lead position and attempt to get angles and a shot.  However, if you choose to take a lag position, you will likely be disengaging the plane.  The La5 accelerates well and has a much higher top end than the Spit 9, so a patient move such as this will more than likely allow the La5 to escape, wherein a lead turn would at least give you a shot.

I hope this helps, I'd be happy to go with you to the TA and demonstrate lead versus lag turns if you think that might help.

Nim

[Am0n]

thanks all of you, good stuff.  

Im just glad to here im not the only one that sees this scenerio as a huge problem.

hate to sound like a dweeb but a spitIX or ecspecaily a YAK is going to get HO'd buy me the first chance i get, and in that case i'll win most of the time. But if there smart enough not to go nose to nose with me they are normaly smart enough to overall conquore(sp) me in every other aspect, because we all know the disadvantage you are left at if you make a failed HO attempt.


does anyone find high speed rolling scrissors effective against spitIX or YAK? they seem to always stay with me, but im probably doing it wrong.  

Can someone please answer this question? Its kinda off the subject but i need to know. When you proform ACM, or a series of them, are you using stick deflection the entire time, or just finding the directional heading for a certain point of the manuever and letting off deflection.

Also when going from a alerion roll to pulling up on elevators is it best to go from pure wing-roll, center stick then pull back(L movement), or best to go from pure wing-roll strait to pulling back (which is diangle movement)? is the later causing much more drag?

thanks again, i havent played in a couple weeks and trying to find a new approach to flying to maybe get on the right track.

*BTW*
film film film!! please (any of yas!)

[aknimitz]

hehe I understood very little of your post with all that fancy language  My fancy language is quite limited, I'd be happy to resopnd but you'd have to break it down for me.

Regarding the high speed rolling scissor .... not a bad idea at all.  I would start it out as a high speed defensive barrel roll and let it develop into a rolling scissor should that be the case.  Meaning, lets say there is a Spit 9 your 6 and closing like a sumsqueak.  But lets say you have around 250 IAS.  Nose down a bit, then throw her into a big defensive barrel roll.  I'd throw down 1 maybe 2 notches of flaps.  The spit will likely take shots as it flies through your roll, and if your paying good attention, you should have a snap shot coming out of you roll on the overshoot.

If the fight actually develops into a rolling scissor, the longer the fight the great the chances for the Spit.  You gotta use instanteneous turn and hi speed roll to try to get a snapshot quick.  The longer the fit goes and the smaller your E gets, the less likely you are gonna pull this one out.

Nim

[Lephturn]

If you are a good enough shot and these guys are silly enough to give you an easy HO shot... by all means take it.  Just beware the spits, because they have Hispanos, which are very good guns with good range for a forward quarter shot.  The Yak has much worse guns, so I'd be a lot more comfortable taking the HO shot versus the Yak... plus I can't run from the Yak so I'll take that shot if offered to me.

It is NOT dweeby to use your plane's strengths.  If your gun package and shooting skills compare favourably to the other guy's, it might be worth going for the HO shot.  It's just risky is all.  Nothing dweeby about taking the shot when it's likely to end in your favour.  If the other guy doesn't want to be shot HO, it's quite simple for him to evade it and set you up for a lead turn.  If people whine at you for "HOing them", they are just pissed at themselves because they did something dumb and got shot down.  Just realize that if you are planning on actually fighting this guy after the merge, taking the HO shot against a good pilot will give him a slight angles and energy advantage at the merge.  A good time to take a HO shot is as you dive to run like hell for home or friendlies, it's not a move you want to use if you plan to stay in the fight IMO.  You also want to be a damn good shot if you take the true HO shots... better make sure you are a better shot than the other guy and can nail him at longer range than he can nail you.  Otherwise it might be best to just evade and bug out.

Now about the high-speed rolling scissors, no I don't find that effective versus those planes either.  There are two reasons for this, first they are not terrible rolling planes even at speed, and second a rolling scissors tends to bleed speed pretty fast when you are flying a Jug.  The whole point of any type of scissors move is to fly more slowly, so maintaining a high-speed rollings scissors is pretty pointless.  The result is that they can stay with you long enough for you to bleed down to speeds where those planes are going to hand you your bellybutton on a plate.  If I'm trying to escape from these guys, I'm likely going to dive my butt to 600 MPH or as close as I can get and level out at worm-burning level with as much speed as possible.  Executed after any decent escape maneuver to generate some separation, and if I don't escape I can at least cover quite a bit of ground before they catch me, often enough to get help.  The one thing the Jug rules at is the 0G dive to INSANE SPEED (TM) and maintaining controls and flight surfaces at the same time, so if I'm really in trouble I'll go for that every time.  If I don't think I can escape that way, or I think I can turn the tables (depending on what I've seen of the other pilot's skill at this point) I'll be working on some kind of an overshoot maneuver such as we discussed above.  It might start from a high-speed rolling scissors, but then turn into seeing who can burn speed off faster to see if I can get an overshoot.  Of course if it doesn't work, I'm doomed.  

Now about control movements.  It depends on the maneuver and the situation.  I blend my movements much of the time, it's far more important that you are deliberate and smooth in your movements I believe.  Sometimes though, pulling G's affects your performance, particularly in roll.  If you unload to 1G or less, you will find your aircraft will roll much more quickly than under G load, so if I'm trying to roll really fast, I will stop pulling while I roll, then resume pulling once I've rolled to my new attitude.