Author Topic: P47 vrs SpitIX  (Read 2113 times)

Offline mrsid2

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P47 vrs SpitIX
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2002, 06:07:39 AM »
I wouldn't be so sure about the excellence of flying of Yams. From what I saw from the film, he could have killed drex almost at any given moment if he just chopped his throttle and saddled in.

Instead he flew the spit b&z and never scored proper hits in addition of flying straight in front of drex's guns too.

He obviously also lost drex a couple times because he extended to vertical and away from the escaping P47. Even from this huge separation, the P47 had no chance of escaping from spit's dive speed.

The D25  that low has so poor acceleration that he would have dominated the fight from the moment on he slowed down enough not to overshoot. The spit could outturn the D25 with ease unless he was speeding like nuts like he did.

Anyways, that's my opinnion after viewing the film.

Offline Lephturn

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P47 vrs SpitIX
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2002, 09:25:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by freeze
Very nice thread wtg.
but Lephturn are u sure that u can outturn a Spit with ur P47 ?
I want to see it.
So i am onlin nearly every day. It would be cool to have a duel against u. Call me dweeb but i love my SpitV and i never got shot down by a brick plane(p47).
So if u have time a duel wopuld be cool.

bets Freeze


I never said a P-47 would out turn a Spit. :)  I said I'd turn with a Spit, but that is a different thing entirely.  And I am referring mainly to the Spit IX, the Spit V is a much better turner.  Under the right circumstances though, almost any plane can "out turn" any other plane.  For example, althought he Spit V has very good sustained turning abilities, at speeds above about 300 Mph or so, the Jug will have a better initial turn performance due to it's ability to bleed E while the Spit V will be far above it's best corner speed.

The whole point here is that it's all about energy and how you use it.  The Jug is very good at burning E to get a very fast turn rate for a short period of time, while the Spits are very good at maintaining their energy to get a good sustained turn rate and a tight turn radius.  If I'm the P-47 pilot, I simply must use my plane to it's best advantage to win.

As for a duel in a Spit V vs. a P-47... well that's almost silly.  No Jug driver in his right mind would engage co-E with a Spit V.  The Jug needs an E advantage to win fights, and a head to head duel isn't one of those situations.  What the Jug driver has though is speed, so he can escape from the Spit V easily and return only with an energy advantage.  When the Jug has an E advantage though, the tables turn, and he can control the fight and make attacks on the Spit from a superior position using a fast initial turn rate to tag the breaking Spit.  It's a fun battle, and one that the P-47 is quite capable of winning and the Spit doesn't have the option of escape.  In a 1v1 duel the Spit V would easily win, but put both planes in the arena and I'll take the Jug every time thank you.  From a position of advantage, the Jug is quite capable of killing a Spit V, and even better, the Jug can extend or escape at any time.

Lets just look at our stats.  Hmmm, in tour 24 you had 228 kills in the Spit V and have died in it 131 times.  You got killed by Jugs 8 or 9 times, but not necessarily flying the Spit V.  I on the other hand, had 34 kills in the P-47-D30 and died only 5 times in it.  Oh, and I pegged a couple of Spit V's in it as well.  Now the stats really don't mean much honestly, but I'm trying to illustrate why I like the Jug... it's a good killer and very survivable.  Although it doesn't excell 1v1 from equal E states like the Spit V does, it certainly does work well for arena combat.

Offline freeze

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P47 vrs SpitIX
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2002, 09:57:00 AM »
Got it ! lol

Freeze

Offline Regurge

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« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2002, 10:16:04 AM »
No offense to Drex, but I have to agree with mrsid for the most part. It looked like Yams was doing blackout turns most of the time.

In my experience with spit vs jug co-e situation, the jug driver has to start with alot of speed, then dump it really fast in a few tight turns to get guns on the spit. That lasts maybe 30 seconds. If it doesnt work, at some point the spit will go vertical and the Jug has no hope of following. Then the Jug has no option but to dive and get separation, like in the film. By timing the dive right, i can usually escape. If the spit has too much speed or if I dont feel like running, I just start the process over again. But since I'm on the deck by now theres no chance to dive away. I dont often win if it gets to that point, and if I do its often by making the spit auger in.

In a multi plane engagement the Jug does much better. A tiny burst of 8x50s will cripple a spit, and theyre pretty easy to pick off when they concentrate on someone else.

Offline Drex

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« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2002, 11:37:24 AM »
No offense taken.  I'm just reacting to what his plane is doing. :)

To set up why he went into BNZ mode is that he knew it was me.  I had been fighting him and honch all evening, and its not likely that there will be more then one green machine in that area.  So he took a cautious approach.  If any of you would like to go to the dueling arena and help me make a film of a spit 5k-10k above a p47 I would greatly appreciate it.  Should be a great learning aid.

Drex

Offline aknimitz

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P47 vrs SpitIX
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2002, 11:43:06 AM »
I'd love to ... gimme a shout anytime you wanna do it.

Nim

Offline Drex

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« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2002, 11:55:27 AM »
Give me a call tonight Nim and we'll head over there.

Drex

Offline aknimitz

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« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2002, 12:45:33 PM »
Ok, now you know I have moved since I had your number :D  Gimme it again! (nimitz@huckabay.net)

Nim

Offline Fester'

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« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2002, 03:49:02 PM »
Drex, I'm not home till the weekend, but if you'd like to set up any situation vs a jug for filming pruposes you may use me as a sparring partner.

Joe Rarey

joe_rarey@yahoo.com

Offline Drex

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« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2002, 04:11:38 PM »
I'll send you an email when I get home Fes.

Drex

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2002, 04:36:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by freeze
Got it ! lol

Freeze


One point. In real aircraft, flying at speeds above 300 mph, the determining factor in who out-turns who is only based upon the individual pilot's ability to withstand G, period. If the sim is modeled correctly (read that as fairly), both pilots will blackout at the same G loading. So, if their relative speeds are the same and above 300 mph, a Jug can match turns with anything in the arena. It's only when speeds go below the Jug's corner velocity that it really begins to lose ground.

There are other mitigating factors that show up in ACM. For example, the Zero's ailerons tighten up severely as speeds increase beyond 300 mph. Got one on your tail? Unload (or dive), accelerate to 350+, and then roll quickly into a break turn. Viola! You have disengaged. It worked in real life and it works here too.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline freeze

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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2002, 01:02:31 AM »
Ty for that Zero tip ill try that for sure.

Freeze

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2002, 09:34:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by freeze
Ty for that Zero tip ill try that for sure.

Freeze


Try this, in fact every newbie player should try this at least once. Go offline, select the A6M5, take off and climb to 10,000 feet. At full throttle, push the nose over. As your airspeed exceeds 350 mph, try rolling the airplane. You will experience the primary weakness of the Zero. Knowing that, you will be able to exploit that weakness when the need arises.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2002, 10:44:31 AM »
I disagree with that widewing. It may have been true in real life, but the AH zero can still be flown at speeds beyond 300mph... using the trim tabs.

Ive had zeros follow my P-38 on a 420mph dive and the zero aiming and following my turn (while diving at 400mph). Trimming the aleirons and kicking rudder on the zeke will make it turn, albeit like an 80 mph unflapped 38, but it will turn. And if it can turn, it can aim. :(

Offline Lephturn

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P47 vrs SpitIX
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2002, 01:04:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing

One point. In real aircraft, flying at speeds above 300 mph, the determining factor in who out-turns who is only based upon the individual pilot's ability to withstand G, period. If the sim is modeled correctly (read that as fairly), both pilots will blackout at the same G loading. So, if their relative speeds are the same and above 300 mph, a Jug can match turns with anything in the arena. It's only when speeds go below the Jug's corner velocity that it really begins to lose ground.


Yes, but only if they both stay at 300 Mph.  My point is that if for example a Spit IX and a Jug are both at 300 MPH, they can both turn about the same... G limit as you say.  The real issue is that during that turn, the Jug will slow down much more quickly and approach it's corner speed more quickly than the Spit IX will pulling the same G load.  The result is that although they start the turn with the same performance, the Jug pilot will bleed speed more quickly, and his turn radius will decrease much more quickly than a plane that holds it's E much better in a corner.  The end result is that from 300 Mph, for about one turn the jug can "out turn" the Spit, simply because it slows down faster, tightening it's turn radius and approaching it's best corner speed much more quickly than the Spit.  Now sure, a sharp Spit driver can cut throttle to try and get the same results, but so can the Jug driver, and while the advantage won't last very long, the Jug driver can still get a better initial turn from medium to high speed.  The trick is to fly the Jug in a manner that will allow kill opportunities using it's great initial turn performance, but avoiding a situation where the Spit's superior sustained turning performance will come into play.  :)