Flying manners

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Apar, it seems you have a clear idea of what fighting in a plane is
I insist, we dont fly airliners here. Start to "dance" in your D9 and you will find that any Spit is much faster, keep D9 as an airliner and you will find that it would be a fast transport plane.

[/B]

You act as if this is a new revelation in this thread.  If you notice my response to you earlier, I noted that most of my 190 kills in a Spit come from suckering them into fighting "my fight."  That means that instead of using their speed to control the fight, they decided to either give me a snapshot angle or turn with me when they should have done something wiser.  Had they been wise, however, there is no way I could have killed them in a Spit V.  Conversely, no matter how well I fly the Spit V, there's no way I can get a kill on a Dora unless it screws up.  The Dora controls that fight, and it's his choice how it begins and ends.

Icons and radar detroy the concept of boom&zoom that is based on surprise attacks and flee as fast as possible.

[/B]

Okay.  How is BnZing with surprise attacks and fleeing as fast as possible "hard?"  You did comment that the Dora was the hardest plane in AH to fly and fight in, but even a 202 can do what you've just mentioned.  That's not hard, but the Dora's speed and guns do make it easier than other planes.

Here, top speed may be useful to flee or to pursue an enemy, but not to fight it. Acceleration is the key factor. La7 top speed doesnt convert it in the killer it actually is, it is only its acceleration, specially acceleration from stall to corner speeds. You want to have excelent acceleration or very good E retention, while top speed is secondary. These are the primary factors for a dogfighter, top speed would be a primary factor for interceptors. An our MA is a 100% dogfighter environment.

[/B]

Clearly it's not a 100% dogfighter environment or you wouldn't achieve any kills at all.  Top speed does matter, or the P-51 wouldn't be as effective a fighter as it is.  Though it accelerates poorly, the P-51 hits a fantastic top speed and bleeds E so slowly that it can stay fast for a very long time.  In that case, it's not the acceleration that matters, but the E retention that makes the 51 untouchable.  The Dora seems to be somewhere inbetween the La-7 and the P-51 in this respect -- it doesn't accelerate as well as the La-7, but it is better than the P-51.  It doesn't hold its E as well as the P-51, but it holds E better than the La-7 (which makes up for it with acceleration).  In my experience in H2H this morning, the Dora handled very well at mid-range speeds from about 250-350mph... keeping it within this range, I felt in control of every fight where I merged co-alt and co-E, including against Spits.  Though it's unorthodox to furball a Dora, I did so with some success earlier by playing to its strengths... the ability to enter and exit the fight on its own terms.  If I didn't like the way a fight was going against a Spit, I'd point the nose down and extend out to set things up again.

DMF, you simply cant appreciate real differences between 190 fighting them in a spit, you will notice that D9 is faster, nothing more, nothing less. Perhaps you may notice differences fighting against Ki61 or N1KJ, but any 190 is just a flying stone for your spit.

Definitely NOT true.  The best way to defeat an enemy is to know an enemy.  I will fly differently against an A5 than I will against a D9, because the differences between the two of them are substantial.  The A5 grants the Spit the luxury of flying more aggressively since it's much slower than the Dora.  I'll also perform certain moves against Doras that I won't against the A5, and vice-versa.  I certainly do appreciate the differences against 190s, and this is why I fly effectively against them.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[MANDOBLE]

Clearly it's not a 100% dogfighter environment or you wouldn't achieve any kills at all


Yep, everybody knows that I get into the furballs at 500 mph trying to cross with an unaware green pilot

Do you know what K/T is?

And I bet that having same shape and colour you are unable to appreciate any difference between 190s. As I'm unable to see any differences between spits.

Perhaps these 190s downed cause got into your play decided to do that cause it is the only way to kill a spit, unless AFK.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
While you are running away or while you are traveling at mach 2 you ARE "N O T" FIGHTING. Is that so difficult to understand????

[/B]

If you are running from a fight, you don't get it anyway.  Why am I even talking to you about "fighting" when it's clear that you don't understand how to use the 190D9's strengths appropriately?  Speed is an asset IN a fight.  Let me repeat that... speed is an asset IN IN IN IN IN IN IN[/i] a fight, not just an asset when running from one.  Fighting does not just equal stallfighting, though stallfighting is a subset of fighting.  The Spit outturns you?  You blow on past, retain your E, extend a bit, reverse, and set him up using angles fighting or BnZ.  If things don't work out, you can continue to do this unscathed until either he's dead or you decide to exit the fight.

In any case I insist, you have not experience flying them or flying against them to say a single word about 190s except that u outurns any of them with your SpitV and any of them are faster than your SpitV, Shane has even less. And a "laboratory" environment like H2H is not MA.

[/B]

Wait a second... so just earlier you stated that the MA is 100% dogfighting.  So I go to a H2H "laboratory" where it's 100% dogfighting, and suddenly now that's not a valid exercise.  Of course it's valid, and the planes mixing it up there represented a nice cross-section of arena planes.  The Dora matched up nicely.

I also have more than enough experience with 190s to know how they stack up to each other and to other planes in the general planeset.  It's silly that you keep continuing this line of argument, when your own statements concerning anything but a 190 have been so riddled with inaccuracies, generalizations, and biases (remember how Spits guarantee the player a 0.0050 K/T?  That one was a hoot).

Perhaps this is new to you, but top speed is not a factor to be able to disengange and, of course, is not a factor to decide whether to engange or not. Top speed dictates very little if u compare it with acceleration and altitude.

Perhaps it's news to you, but top speed is an enormous factor in choosing engagements.  I can't believe you'd actually argue otherwise when evidence in the form of planes like the P-51 contradict you.  I do agree that acceleration and altitude can matter, but they are no more or less important than speed.  The La5 outaccelerates just about every plane in AH including the La-7, but it's relatively slower and handles very poorly when super fast.  As such, I don't consider the La5 as survivable as the D9, which features reasonable middle and high speed handling, a high top end, good acceleration, etc etc.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Yep, everybody knows that I get into the furballs at 500 mph trying to cross with an unaware green pilot

You and I both know you don't need to do that to get kills in a Dora.  In a confusing furball environment with just a little bit of speed going in, it could be a monster.  I wouldn't want to be in the ditches turnfighting a Hurricane in one, but it would perform admirably by flying its kind of fight.

Do you know what K/T is?

[/B]

Yes.  Now go check the stats on NathBDP, who almost exclusively flies the 190A8 low and slow on the deck in furballs.  He's got a K/T of 0.0035 -- better than just about every Spit driver I know.

And I bet that having same shape and colour you are unable to appreciate any difference between 190s. As I'm unable to see any differences between spits.

[/B]

Eh?  It's immediately easy to spot the differences between A-model 190s and the Dora.  The Dora sports a dark, greenish paint scheme with a long nose while the A-models are both gray with a squat nose.  The hard part is telling the difference between the A5 and the A8, which I can usually do by their actions or performance.

Spits are easy to tell apart.  The Spit IX has a gray paint scheme with a bit of color on the wings and wingtips.  The Spit V is brownish, while the Seafire has a more monocolor gray than the Spit IX.  I always know immediately which Spit I'm fighting after the merge.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Vortex]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying


By this criteria I consider the Dora easy relative to the A8 because it enjoys a number of key advantages including substantially higher top end speed and more stable handling.  It can control fights whereas the A8 cannot (at least for long).  If my virtual life depended on it, I'd choose the Dora over the A8 for its superior survivability.

-- Todd/Leviathn

I think that's a pretty fair assesment. I've flown both a fair bit and find the A8 far more challenging due to its greatly inferior turn (contrary to comments here, it is far inferior in this area. All that extra weight has an effect after all), speed, climb and WEP. The only planes I really fear when flying a D9 are 51's and La7's. Both are faster (for the most part) and defintiely handle far better. Actually the P51 is the big threat as its handling is leaps and bouinds better. La7's can be an even match depending on who's flying. A dweeb in a 51 can turn inside you though. Neverthless, against every other plane you can pretty much dictate when and where to fight, even if they have an alt advantage. That's a significant advantage.

If there's one area I do have problems in the D9 it is hitting stuff with the guns. I don't know why but by and large I can't hit a thing with this plane. I'll line up a shot similar to how I would with the A8 or A5, fire, and not hit a thing. That alone causes me far more deaths in this plane than I likelyt should have. Frustration takes over and I inevitably do something stupid.

Overall though I'd defintely agree. The D9 is no slouch (in the top 10 to be sure) and has a lot more things going for it than its little brother, the A8.

[AKSWulfe]

I can sum up the last half of this thread in one single word:

roadkill.

The D9 has the power to retain energy in a turn better than the A8. Therefore, the D9 can turn inside of the A8 so long as it starts off at the same speed or better.

The A5 is slower than half the planes flown, therefore it is harder to kill and live in.

The A8 is fast, but you only got one or two turns before your toejam out of luck in the speed/energy department. THerefore it is very hard to kill a lot and live in.

The D9 is the fastest, and has superior turn speeds relative to the A8 at the same speeds. The power it has gives it the ability to extend from a fight should it need it. Therefore the D9 is the easiest to get kills and live in.

I've gotten to the point of seeing that Mandoble only has one agenda on his list and that's to ensure that people think being able to do well in the D9 is some kind of out of this world feat.

Hey man, it ain't... why do you think it's got a lower ENY value than both the A5 and A8????
-SW

[MANDOBLE]

Eh?  It's immediately easy to ...

I was meaning with all the 190 modeled identically in 3D, same shape, same colours. Would u really differentiate A8 than D9 or A5 then? I, obviously, can differentiate between SpitV and IX, but for me both are the same plane.

Wulfe, A8 is more docile than D9, D9 more surveilable than A8, but killing with A8 is FAR more easy than with D9, due handling and due weapons, same for A5.

And based on ENY, Spit is uber compared to D9.

hey, no agenda at all here, I have maximum respect for A8 drivers too, and point is not into being able to fly well any 190, just to fly it.

[thrila]

Based on ENY, the spit is uber compared to the D9?  I don't understand this statement.

Are you trying to say that the spit has a lower ENY than D9, is that it?  If you are, compare spitV ENY to D9 and notice which one is higher.

[NUTTZ]

LOL, if it wasn't for the red Icon, i couldn't tell you what plane im fighting!

NUTTZ

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Eh?  It's immediately easy to ...

I was meaning with all the 190 modeled identically in 3D, same shape, same colours. Would u really differentiate A8 than D9 or A5 then? I, obviously, can differentiate between SpitV and IX, but for me both are the same plane.

Wulfe, A8 is more docile than D9, D9 more surveilable than A8, but killing with A8 is FAR more easy than with D9, due handling and due weapons, same for A5.

And based on ENY, Spit is uber compared to D9.

hey, no agenda at all here, I have maximum respect for A8 drivers too, and point is not into being able to fly well any 190, just to fly it.

[midnight Target]

There was a Western made a few years back called "The Diablo Kid". In it, the villian was asked why he had shot someone in the back. He answered, "well dammit, his back was TO me!"

"well dammit...his HEAD was TO me!"

[AKIron]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Eh?  It's immediately easy to ...


And based on ENY, Spit is uber compared to D9.
 

Use of the ENY values probably not the best support for your argument Mandoble.

N1K2----10
LA7------13
Spit9----13
190D9--18
P51------18
Yak9U---25
Spit5----30

You do realize that the higher the number the more inferior HTC
considers the plane to be?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by MANDOBLE
I was meaning with all the 190 modeled identically in 3D, same shape, same colours. Would u really differentiate A8 than D9 or A5 then? I, obviously, can differentiate between SpitV and IX, but for me both are the same plane.

[/B]

If all of the 190s fielded the same model, I wouldn't find it terribly difficult to differentiate between the A-models and the Dora.  Like I said, the difficulty lies in differentiating between the A5 and the A8 since they perform relatively closer to one another than the Dora does to them.  It would be very easy to distinguish between an A5 and a D9.

Wulfe, A8 is more docile than D9, D9 more surveilable than A8, but killing with A8 is FAR more easy than with D9, due handling and due weapons, same for A5.

[/B]

The A8 is more docile than the D9?  No way.  It's got much nastier stall characteristics when slow, and it seems to bleed E a lot faster than the D9... meaning that it gets slow in a hurry and tends to stay there.  The A5 seems more balanced... it turns nicely, rolls well, and can surprise traditional stallfighters in a scissoring fight.  However, it's quite slow compared to the Dora, and its slow speed, like the Spit V, dooms it.  The A5 rarely possesses the ability to control or dominate a fight.  About the only things that the A8 has going for it versus the Dora are a marginally better roll and better armament.  If I were in a duel, and I had to choose between an A8 or a D9, I'd choose the D9.

And based on ENY, Spit is uber compared to D9.

[/B]

Compared to the Spit V?  The Dora is uber based on ENY.

hey, no agenda at all here, I have maximum respect for A8 drivers too, and point is not into being able to fly well any 190, just to fly it.

You claim to not have an agenda, yet you consistently attempt to (inaccurately) paint the A8 as an easier plane to fly than the D9 when this is not the case.  Since you fly the Dora, this reeks of your attempting to paint yourself as some ubermensch virtual pilot who, against all odds in the worst plane of all, manages to prevail.  What a load of BS.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Apache]

Instead of reading this whole thing, I thought I would make it simple on myself. Did Mandoble have a point or is this just another of his Axis High threads?

[Gixer]

Originally posted by Czpetr



I still wonder why someone constantly feels the need to whine and comment about dweeb planes, dweeb rides, uberplanes and whatever. Why do you care what the others fly in? It`s not your bussines. You are not paying their accounts. This wacky discussions make me pretty sick.

Btw: those fighters were excellent fighters in real life, did you ever hear about that?  So it`s no miracle when they are good in AH too.

czpetr

Couldn't agree more!!!

And on the subject of chutes. I kill any chute I see that might be calling out friendly positions,base information etc.. As I know that's what I do when ever possible.


...-Gixer

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Apache
Instead of reading this whole thing, I thought I would make it simple on myself. Did Mandoble have a point or is this just another of his Axis High threads?

It started out as an Axis High thread and soon became a Mandoble is #1 thread.  Don't waste your time.

-- Todd/Leviathn