Author Topic: Bomb in Jerusalem  (Read 2376 times)

Offline mrfish

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Bomb in Jerusalem
« Reply #60 on: March 04, 2002, 08:04:08 PM »
"The Torah is my document, but that is a silly thing....right?
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there. But, that is neither here or there, because you couldn't give a dang. Lets fight, we'll send the arabs packing and get it over with.
"

that's why: an unguarded moment of truth-telling, not the phony apologies and excuses offered to satiate the west.

Offline Pongo

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Bomb in Jerusalem
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2002, 08:14:35 PM »
Hatred

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #62 on: March 04, 2002, 08:39:13 PM »
What the hell is wrong with that post in your eyes fd ski?

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #63 on: March 04, 2002, 09:05:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
"The Torah is my document, but that is a silly thing....right?
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there. But, that is neither here or there, because you couldn't give a dang. Lets fight, we'll send the arabs packing and get it over with.
"

that's why: an unguarded moment of truth-telling, not the phony apologies and excuses offered to satiate the west.


Quite a bit different tone from his 1st post..........

now its "Why dont they just let us kill them peacefully"

Esther was a good book :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: March 04, 2002, 09:09:54 PM by Wotan »

Offline ~Caligula~

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Bomb in Jerusalem
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2002, 12:47:09 AM »
Wotan said :
Quite a bit different tone from his 1st post..........

now its "Why dont they just let us kill them peacefully"

Esther was a good book  

Well that is the point isn't it. Again you aren't listening, we are just arguing our points. The EU the Arab sumit think it is all right that the Arabs murder Jews. I am not talking about murdering anybody; I would perfer that the Arabs go to their own lands (Jordan, Syria, Lebonon,etc) in peace, but it seems that every body is picking a side. Or at least that is the way I see it. I am an American, that means I believe in the inaliable rights of humans, and I can't see that the mideaster countries try to apperciate human lives except in Israel and Turkey. America is the Head country because its righteousness, and America is on the side of Israel for that same reason too.
I have excellent arguements against Arabs occuping my land, but the point is we don't see each other eye to eye. What other option do we have except war.

Wotan please don't point out the meanings you think you understand about the holy history of the Jews. I am taking the opinion that you are a gentile or a unlearned Jew. And as such your interpretations of a story that was wrote by Jews for Jews to understand and use; I feel you miss understand the meanings intended, because of cultural and national differances.
A little insight Haman wanted to murder ALL the Jews. We Jews are not interested in Murdering anybody, just living a natural safe life in our own counrty.That meant Jews had to destroy Haman and he`s followers.Arabs are trying to destroy Israel and the Jews in that region.Something has to be done. If that takes the expoltion of Arabs, (I stress not murder) then so be it. Repeat Haman wanted to send the Jews to the after world. I hope you can start to see the difference.  
--Yatziv

Offline straffo

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« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2002, 01:40:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What the hell is wrong with that post in your eyes fd ski?


it's because you just come with a wise statement (and you've not exploded like usualy :)):

Quote
Listen you two will have to learn to live together, because one side can't kill all the other side while one isn't allowed to.


Wich is the forgotten goal (by both sides of the conflict)


Personnaly I just hope that Palestinian and Jew can live together in peace but it's not likely :(

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2002, 02:50:34 AM »
This is for people who have not made up their minds in this matter.

 

We read in the book of Nehemiah that the Arabs attacked Jews in Judah and Sumerian. It is very similar to what they are doing today except for two major parts. 1) They (the Arabs) didn't have explosions 2) they didn't attack from with in the borders of modern day Israel. The reasons are simple 1) there where not explosive at that time period 2) The Arabs had to travel from their land into the Kingdom of Judah to attack Jews. Proof that they Arabs where not in the land at the time.



 We read in the Josephus’s book “The Jewish War” that the Jews had to mount an attack on the Arab because, the Arabs where raiding the villages within the Kingdom of Judah.

 

We know that the Jews where not forced out en-mass till appox. 168 C.E. There where still a large community of Jews in the province of Palestine (as the Roman Emperor Augustus called it.) until the 4th century C.E. At that time the land held little Jews, Christians and pagans. The land became barren because there wasn’t anybody to tend the fields or replant the trees. The land of Palestine/Judah/Israel became a desert.

 

            Israel and Jerusalem never held a special place to the Arabs. (Arabs are the people that the media convinced the world to think as of Palestinians)

 

When Mohammed sought to convert the Jews in the 620s C.E. , he adopted several Jewish-style practices - a Yom Kippur-like fast, a synagogue-like place of worship, kosher-style food restrictions - and also tachanun - like prayers while facing Jerusalem. But when most Jews rejected Mohammed's overtures, the Koran changed the prayer direction to Mecca and Jerusalem lost importance for Moslems.

 

Jerusalem regained stature a few decades later when rulers of the Umayyad dynasty sought ways to enhance the importance of their territories. One way was by building two monumental religious structures in Jerusalem, the Dome of the Rock in 691 and Al-Aqsa Mosque in 715. Then the Umayyads did something tricky: The Koran states that God took Mohammed "by night from the sacred mosque in Mecca to the furthest (al-aqsa) place of worship." When this passage was revealed (about 621), "furthest place of worship" was a turn of phrase, not a specific place. Decades later, the Umayyads built a mosque in Jerusalem and called it Al-Aqsa. Moslems since then understand the passage about the "furthest place of worship" as referring to Jerusalem. But when the Umayyads fell in 750, Jerusalem lapsed into near obscurity.

 

The Crusader conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 evinced little Moslem reaction at first. Then, as a Moslem counter-crusade developed, so did a whole literature extolling the virtues of Jerusalem. As a result, at about this time Jerusalem came to be seen as Islam's third most holy city. Then, safely back in Moslem hands in 1187, the city lapsed into its usual obscurity. The population declined, even the defensive walls fell.

 

Only when British troops reached Jerusalem in 1917, did Moslims reawaken to the city's importance. Palestinian leaders made Jerusalem a centerpiece of their campaign against Zionism. When the Jordanians won the old city in 1948, Moslems predictably lost interest again in Jerusalem. It reverted to a provincial backwater, deliberately degraded by the Jordanians in favor of Amman, their capital. Taking out a bank loan, subscribing to telephone service, or registering a postal package required a trip to Amman. Jordanian radio transmitted the Friday sermon not from Al-Aqsa but from a minor mosque in Amman. Jerusalem also fell off the Arab diplomatic map: the PLO covenant of 1964 did not mention it. No Arab leader (other than King Hussein, and he rarely) visited there.

 

The Israeli conquest. When Israel captured the city in June 1967, Moslem interest in Jerusalem again surged. The 1968 PLO covenant mentioned Jerusalem by name. Revolutionary Iran created a Jerusalem Day and placed the city on bank notes. Money flooded into the city to build it up. Thus have politics, more than religious sentiments, driven Moslim interest in Jerusalem through history.

 

We see from this discussion that the Arabs have a masculinity problem. Like taking a ball from a child who didn't even notice the ball till you started to play with it. To add fire to insult, the weakest nation in the world(Jewish) the wonders and parasites of other nations, defeated the “mighty” Arabs. Of coarse I understand that it must hurt their feelings. But, I can’t feel sorry for them, they have theirs I want what is mine. G-d how long did we wait and the thousands of prayers, to return to see our home land.

--yatziv

Offline MANDOBLE

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Bomb in Jerusalem
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2002, 03:03:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there.


There is a lot of archeological and historic proof that my ancestors discovered, lived, evangelized and colonized actual USA territory (including Alaska), so be ready to evacuate cause u are living now into a spanish crown territory :p

Then some indian will come to us and will tell us the same story and so on.

How many centuries has been these territories living without any contact with the Jewish comunity? Is a religion a major cause to ask for a country ownership? Are the mormons going to ask for a country cause all they are mormons? Are the christians going to ask their rights over actual Israel territory cause their religion was born there?

IMO, separatism based on religion is just a cancer, one of the major cancers in human history.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2002, 03:27:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
...There is a lot of archeological proof...


You care ... I don't

This who was 1st here discution is simply childish , idiotic,anecdotic and lead to war .


Fact is that YOU (*) have to live together PERIOD.

But it suppose to get ride (on both side) of your wacky dirigeants.

(*) Israely and Palestinian

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2002, 03:45:23 AM »
Caligula why don't you own up to the fact that Jews and Palestinians are the same people? toejam Arafat and Sharon look like brothers for god's sake.  You both belong there, you have to figure out a way to coexist.

There will be no fantasy mass expulsion of Palestinians from the area in long term nor any fantasy mass extermination of Jews in the long term, why can't you people figure  this out?

Offline ~Caligula~

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« Reply #70 on: March 05, 2002, 04:08:07 AM »
Quote
There will be no fantasy mass expulsion of Palestinians from the area in long term nor any fantasy mass extermination of Jews in the long term, why can't you people figure this out?


Good diddlyin question dude.
Why don`t You give them some guidelines on how to start?

I think exporting some leftover Hippies would be a good start.
People would get high,drop acid,sing around the campfire and stick flowers in the gunbarrels together.

God...if it was only that simple.
I`m just as sick of this whole ongoing BS as You are,I really am.

Offline takeda

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let real Israelis speak for themselves
« Reply #71 on: March 05, 2002, 04:33:21 AM »
by Tamir Sorek. Sergeant 1st class. Army Intelligence. IDF.


In 1967, a new state was born in the Middle East on territory that was known by the Jews as the "Land of Israel" and by the Arabs as "Palestine." This state was established as an outcome of the forced unification of a number of territories that before then had been ruled by different states. The three most populated areas in the new state were: the territory ruled by Israel from 1948-67, the West Bank, formerly under Jordanian rule, and the Gaza Strip, formerly under Egyptian rule.

The administrative and symbolic contiguity that was established between the state of Israel and the new state caused many to assume that these two political bodies were identical. In fact, June 1967, led to such a qualitative change that it is necessary to look at the new body as a different state entirely. This is in reference not only to the tremendous territorial gains nor to the fact that its population was about 1/3 the size of the state of Israel. The most important element of all was the complete renunciation by the new state of its ambition of being for the most part a democratic state. In truth, the state of Israel was not a model of democracy. A military government ruled over its Arab citizens and they suffered discrimination in contrast to Jewish citizens. That being said, the declaration of independence, which was the closest thing to a constitution for the young state, expressed a declared readiness to found a democratic regime that protected the rights of all persons irrespective of race or religion. In that context, the end of the military government in 1966 ushered in the possible beginning of a process that would have turned the state of Israel into the only democracy in the Middle East.

The new state that was established, "the State of Greater Israel," was not bound by the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and did not aspire to be a democratic state. The borders of this state as presented, for example, on the weather forecasts in the press, radio, and television, included the entire territory between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. In geography and "Homeland" classes, students in public schools of this state learned about the borders of their country that extended from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. Afterwards those same students learned about the principles of democracy in civics classes: the form of government in which the people elects its rulers. What was never taught in those schools was the simple fact that the system of democratic rule was applicable only vis-?-vis part of the territories that the state ruled. The fact that about ¼ of the residents of the new state were denied civil rights, could not elect their rulers or be elected, and lived under military rule was left out of the lesson plan.

Over time it has become clear that the distinction between the two forms of rule is not necessarily territorial. A significant number of residents from the territory under the authority of an elected parliament moved into the areas under military rule—the West Bank and Gaza Strip. And miracle of miracles, those residents continued to preserve their right to elect and be elected as well as other rights—for example freedom of expression and freedom to organize—which were kept from the older residents. This is how two groups came to be in the areas under military rule—Jews, who enjoyed full civil rights, and in contrast, Palestinian Arabs (upon whose confiscated land the new residents settled), who were denied all civil rights, including the right to immigrate to the civil part of the state. At the schools of those with rights they continued to teach that discrimination on the basis of racial, ethnic, national or religious background is a horrible thing against which human beings must struggle. In that context many hours were devoted to studying the racism that was aimed at the Jews in Europe, yet no classes were devoted to discuss the condition of the non-citizens of the state, residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

The uprising of the deprived habitants of "the Greater State of Israel" in 1987 was inevitable and self-evident. Since then, some serious attempts have been made to settle the issue. These attempts failed because of the shortsightedness and irresponsibility of leaders from both the deprived and the privileged camps. However, until now, the deprived habitants are still desperately demanding their rights. The obvious facts that their uprising includes hideous assaults against innocent privileged people do not subtract from the legitimacy of their claim for freedom from non-elected rule.

The people upon whom the responsibility for suppressing the uprising has been inflicted are the students of the confusing educational system of "the Greater State of Israel." That system on the one hand preached democracy and condemned discrimination based on racial origin, yet on the other hand drew maps that gave legitimacy to a non-democratic racist regime. Today, hundreds of diligent students who learned the essence of democracy in civics classes are demanding to implement its principles in reality, or at least not to demand that they defend in practice the existence of a non-democratic regime. By this deed they are accused by the right wing of treachery and by the left wing of undermining the principles of a democratic regime (!)

There are those who do not rank civic equality and democracy high on their list of values. With those people, of course, I can hardly establish a dialogue. It is still possible to argue with those who still believe in democracy about the desired form of implementing its principles. One large state in which all of its citizens would enjoy equal rights, or division into two independent states in which its own citizens will enjoy equal rights. Yet there is one thing about which there can be no argument: whoever refuses to take part in denying civil rights to millions of people does not endanger democracy, rather he fights for it.

Offline batdog

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Bomb in Jerusalem
« Reply #72 on: March 05, 2002, 06:46:35 AM »
The PLO are tools. They're simply being used to keep the area unstable and in choas. Certain powers want/need this for various reasons. The worst thing that could possiably happen for some IS peace. The sad thing is that niether side seems to see this. They simply repeat the SOS over and over...



xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #73 on: March 05, 2002, 08:24:49 AM »
escalating by the minute ....

so what happens when Israel pulls out the stops and eliminates Palestine, basically "conquering" the land mass and taking over, (whats left) having complete control of the area...

what will the countries that back Palestine do?
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


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Offline ~Caligula~

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Bomb in Jerusalem
« Reply #74 on: March 05, 2002, 01:41:28 PM »
Israel screwed up when they didn`t give citizenship to the arabs after the war in 1967.But You can`t forget that these were the people who were about to destry Isreael and "push the jews into the sea".

The argument is not about wether the jews or arabs were there first.It`s about how one side would treat the other if they were in power.Looking at other arab states it`s obvious that non muslims have no rights and are treated like crap by those governments.What would be the point of Israel if it`s government would persecute jews ,just because they`re jews.
Besides that the arabs don`t want a joint government and country where jews and arabs live together,they want the jews out of there or dead.
In the peace process in the previous few years the palestinians were just about to get all the rights and privileges of a jewish citizen of Israel,but they didn`t want it.While they had autority over the west bank and Gaza they did absolutelly nothing to bring up it`s economy,and they remained in poverty.They kept on harrasing Israelis by terror attacks to the point where the patience ran out.

They want the jews out of a land they have allready conquered for islam.In their mind Islamic land can not be given up,no matter if it`s absolutelly no use for them.
Israel was founded so the Jewish nation that was scattered all over the world (yes it`s a nation ,not just a religion) can have it`s own country and don`t have to be in the mercy of some foreign country`s non jewish government anymore.
Israel is there to stay,and it`s a huge stain on the arab`s pride.
That country is so small compared to the arab world.If all these arabs are so uncomfortable under a non muslim rule,why can`t they just move a 100 miles in any direction ,and be under muslim rule?Or mellow out and start the peace-process again,but on a secound tought I doub`t anyone would trust eachoder anymore after all the horror both sides caused to one and other.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2002, 01:50:30 PM by ~Caligula~ »