Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?

[LePaul]

Originally posted by bowser:
Seems you asked the question LePaul, and refuse to listen to the answers.

bowser

And those answers are?

We're entertaining a pretty rational discussion.  If you can not maintain the spirit of the conversation, perhaps you should abstain from posting?

[lazs1]

I take it back... you don't know what is true LP....

I said that the fields need to stay open to fighters till the whole field is closed or the fields need to be easier to close period.   The point being....  

In the first instance of availability... that fighters (and the dozens of guys involved) would not be out of the game so far as the close fields went from one or two "flyovers" from one guy in a buff at 10k above the fray.    

In the second instance... If the fields were easier to capture then everyone would participate and.... best of all... the field would be CAPTURED ...  if it were captured it would then be useful... it would become the "front" instead of a no mans land.  The war would move on at a faster pace and involve more players in the so called strat.

I noticed that you didn't comment on bomb accuracy.  

I don't believe that a "strat" element of the game is to make people fly long distances to get into a fight.   That is bull.  I believe that is a bug and will somehow get fixed.   How does not having any good places to fite from enhance the game in your opinion?   How does people being bored and maybe logging off  make for a better game?

Do you actually believe that people should cap every field just in case some suicide buffer might want to drop the hangers?   I ask you, who do you think will do this job?  do you honestly think that attacking or even killing buffs is "fun" enough for the average fighter that he will forsake the fighting to hunt an unrealistic and unfun buff?

so long as u have so much (adverse)affect on so many peoples game for so little effort... you will not be liked or welcomed in some places.   You say I don't speak for everyone around me and that may be true but you akowledge the animosity towards you that is so easy to rise to the surface and ignore any  explanations as to what causes it if those suggestions balance your affect on the game.
lazs

[texace]

No, LePaul was right about Lazs. We bomber pilots are not "attention starved", we are simply helping our country capture fields. We, or more specifically I, don't care if I ruin the fun of 6 or 7 fighter guys on the other or even my team, I am simply moving the front. You can whine and piss and moan all the same, but I will stil not care. I get alt to be safer, and I kill hangers to disable the field. You don't like it? Tough, this isn't simply a fighter game. Hell I am sure the Germans never called Allied Command and said "Your bombers are ruining our fighter guys abilities, please remove them from the war!"

Learn to ignore them or kill them. If they pork your field and stop the fight, fly elsewhere and find another one. I don't think killing the FH at one field simply grounds all other planes in the Arena. Now, I am not saying the bombers are historically correct, I am just tired of this same arguement turning into a giant bomber flamefest.

Fighter Pilots Make Movies.
Bomber Pilots Make History.

[LePaul]

Pardon me, Texace, while I applaud...

<clap clap clap>

As we've covered, we all agree that the B-17s amazing aerial feats need looking into, as well as the guns that shot through their own structure.  And I thank HiTech for wadding in here and pointing out the myth of convergence.  So, to those complanits about the B-17 in general, I agree, and submit to you, its in need of some tweaking.

However, that leaves us with the Ar234, B-26, Ju88, Lancaster and TBM.  All of whom seem to work fine in their respective duties.  But to folks like Westy and Lazs, they should be yanked from the game since its simlpy unfair that a bomber, as vunerable as they are, can wreck havoc on a field where these two are doing whatever furballers do.

And quite honestly, their argument is a whine.  How dare we ruin their fun, wrecking their hangars and such.  Us evil bombers made Westy and Laz fly to the fight.  >shrug<  Its hard to debate them since their argument is largely emotion...we're been painted the devil for, well, playing the game, in complete contradiction to how Laz and Westy play.

[hazed-]

my appologies on the comment 'perfectly converging'  , I had made the assumption that all the guns converge from reading other posts, my mistake.

[ET]

At one time it only took 1 1000lb bomb to kill the FHs.2 B17s could kill all the FHs at 6 small bases.Fighter guys complained and rightfully so.They could get nowhere near a base under attack.They upped the load needed to 2500 lbs but 1 B17 could take down the 2 FHs.Now the small bases have 3 FHs and it takes 2 B17s or 1 Lanc to kill them.
   They added rearm pads so you get the plane back up when the hangers were down.
   If you kill all the ammo at a field,the buff can't go up.
   If you kill all the fuel,there is always 25% for a fighter to go with.
   The Cvs never run out of planes,how big are they ?
    If this is what is needed to keep the game fun for fighter jocks,then so be it.They have a right to enjoy themselves in here doing what they like to do.But so do the buff drivers.

Hey Mr.Taliban,tally me banana.Daylight come and POOF

[Westy MOL]

" Us evil bombers made Westy and Laz fly to the fight."

 You love to put some spins on what you read and you love to twist what was said with some pretty far reaching distortions.
 I'd try to make my point clearer but from your response to my most basic exlanation of what pisses off some people, such as myself, I could see that would be futile with such a paranoidal bomber jock as yourself.

 Westy

[DanielMcIntyre]

why don't lazs and the rest of the furball starved majority go to the CT or DA n furball in there?  Personally I find large furballs kinda fun for a couple of minutes and then boring cause its really all just a matter of luck whether you survive or not.  Next time theres a large furball going on, i'm gonna go n bomb all the hangers nearby, only the ones lazs is upping from thou.

 

[LePaul]

Oh come on now, Westy, don't get your panties in a bunch!  

There is no spin, I am basing what I said *directly* on what you and Laz have been saying.  You and Laz indicate that whenever a buff appears, we ruin your fun.  How else are we to interpet that?

But, when backed into a corner, I suppose that's the best retort you can muster?  Perhaps you would like to clarify your statements?

[Apache]

Originally posted by Zygote:
why don't lazs and the rest of the furball starved majority go to the CT or DA n furball in there?  Personally I find large furballs kinda fun for a couple of minutes and then boring cause its really all just a matter of luck whether you survive or not.  Next time theres a large furball going on, i'm gonna go n bomb all the hangers nearby, only the ones lazs is upping from thou.

 

Just a matter of luck? No wonder you get bored.

[Westy MOL]

My statements were perfectly clear. Calling my POV a "whine" and that I infer you and others who pilot bombers to be "evil" is how you brought us down this path.

 My point stand. It's too easy for a no skill bomber/jabo pilot to single handedly ruin the fun of a half dozen or more people.

 I never mentioned group efforts, I single out the solitary dimwad who has no ability what so ever of making a capture of the base they are bombing but they come in at 15k and make one hit and run (or hit and die).
 Also, no one told bomber pilots to go fly H2H if they want to bomb. Yet that's the lame response some people cough up every time when anyone speaks up about how easy it is for a few to disrupt the enjoyment of many.

 I do not propose weakening bombers guns. They die easy enough. I do not propose abolishing bombers, they are fun in thier own right and also make nice targets.

 I do propose the skill level needed be raised to somewhere approaching the lowest level of some complexity. That's something you "bomber guys" would have no problem with isn't it? I mean you want a sim right? Or would you prefer HTC rename Aces High to "B17-III: Online" and make the fighters AI operated?

  Westy

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

[Apache]

Well said Westy. I concur

BD, a question if I might. Why do you buff guys not fly in multiple bomber formations? Don't take the easy out. There are plenty of bomber pilots.

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Apache ]

[eskimo2]

Lazs1:
It takes at least 2 bombers to close a field.

Part of the reason why fields are so difficult to capture is that they are also difficult to close.  Even with 4+ guys capping a field, I have seen 1 suicidal defender kill the goon or troops on the ground without getting in the air himself, again and again.  I certainly do not condemn this practice, and I do it myself when I think that I stand a fair chance at getting the troops before I die.  It does illustrate, however, that fields often need to be closed before capture.

Most of the time, fields are in the process of being captured.
But, goons are slow, undefended planes.  They get shot down a lot.  There is usually only 1 goon in a capture team, so if it gets killed, the capture can be delayed another 10 to 25 minutes.  Often no one is willing to drive a goon until a base is successfully either 100% shut down, or at least de-acked, VH down, capped and clear of enemy.

Bomb accuracy is a game concession.
It needs to be there to make flying bombers worthwhile.  
1 fighter can already de-ack a field, take down its VH, and provide a cap immediately.  
What's the point in having bombers if they can't do at least a bit more than a fighter can?

"I don't believe that a "strat" element of the game is to make people fly long distances to get into a fight. "
I have been playing this game since day 1, and I play often.
I do not recall EVER seeing an entire front line shut down (except just before reset).  
The point of shutting down a base is to delay the enemy from getting your goon or troops.
If the nearest enemy base is 10 min away, and you have a goon 7 min out, you get the base.
How is that not strategy?

"Do you actually believe that people should cap every field just in case some suicide buffer might want to drop the hangers? I ask you, who do you think will do this job? do you honestly think that attacking or even killing buffs is "fun" enough for the average fighter that he will forsake the fighting to hunt an unrealistic and unfun buff?"

I love buff hunting, so do many others.  Most of the time you can climb and intercept an enemy bomber before he can finish bombing your field, if you are paying attention to the world around you, besides the nearest 5 friendlies who are chasing 1 con down to the deck to kill him.

eskimo

[Buzzbait]

S!

If the bomber guns are firing parellel to each other, then that confirms the 'shotgun' theory I had.

At 1,000 yards with the dispersion shown in the HTC gun analyzer, that would mean each gun is showing approximately a 30 ft dispersion pattern.  In a side shot, if the guns are hitting approximately 20-30 ft apart, then that means the fire from all the guns will be providing a huge shotgun pattern approximately 100 ft in diameter.  This pattern would be at its biggest when fireing at a target to the side of the bomber.  This is because the length distance between the guns is at its greatest when looking at positioning along the length of the fuselage.  A side shot gives a good opportunity to hit with this big pattern, but is reduced in its hit effectiveness due to the low density of bullets by area.

Hitech's explanation would also explain why the directly overhead attack on a bomber is so effective.  Only one gun can be brought to bear, therefore the shotgun pattern is smaller, and at its lowest density.

It also explains why the directly ahead, or directly behind attacks are the most dangerous for the fighter.

In those type of attacks, the distance between the bomber guns is actually  only the vertical distance between the ball turrets and the tail or chin gun.  (perhaps 10 ft)  Therefore the shotgun pattern is more concentrated, being probably a 40 foot circle at 1000 yards.  In this 40 foot circle you have 6 .50 cals.

Plus of course, no deflection.

[funkedup]

LePaul it's pretty simple.

The bombers have defensive capabilities which surpass anything in recorded history.

Their ability to hit multiple targets on a single pass from high altitude is surpassed only by the B-2 with GPS bombs. (I'm not kidding.)

And too many MA bombers abuse their superpowers.  Ackstars, lonewolf super-high altitude plinking, porking fields where good dogfights are happening, carbombing, etc.

The fighters are not perfect but their offensive and defensive capabilities are a lot closer to the real thing than the bombers.

That's why there is resentment.

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]