Author Topic: Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?  (Read 2435 times)

Offline Wilbus

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2001, 12:50:00 PM »
Oh Man, didn't bother to read all new posts in here, what people say about buff guys that we fighter jocks yell for them to come close fields and and bomb the heck out of bases is SO true, I love seeing one of my buff friends flying above a field and then seeing the hangers blow up, I do my best to try and give them escort when I see the. Without bombers in AH the game would be BORING, belive me, Fighter Ace had no bombers (atleast not when I tried it) and it was SOOO boring, sure, FA isn't a good game otherwise but lack of buffs didn't even make it worth the free registration.

There is very very few people in the arena who think bombers ruin the game and all the fun for furrballers. I am a 100% fighter Pilot, I like bringing my 190 A8 into a furrball with my guns blazing, I like attacking buffs in it and all this adds to the game, what i don't like is bombers and bomber pilots chasing fighters and ackstarring because "they can". This of course, mostly happens at high alts.

<S> To everybody who is still flying bombers, even though you're constantly exposed to bad comments and whines, and never whine back! Please stay!
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline LePaul

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2001, 01:35:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Apache:
Well said Westy. I concur

BD, a question if I might. Why do you buff guys not fly in multiple bomber formations? Don't take the easy out. There are plenty of bomber pilots.

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Apache ]

Greetings.

Usually when I get on-line, its 10:45pm EST and most of my squaddies have headed off to bed.  When I am plotting to take a Lancaster out, I announce on the country channel.  Usually, no one wants to come along but then again, most of my teammates know my abilities and know that I do well as a lone buff, with escort and support.  A few times, Sheppy and a few others have asked to go with me, so on a couple of occasions, I've lead a wing of 2 or 3 buffs to strike a field.

But, most folks like the rides they like.  Its hard to talk a P-38 dweeb into a long, long climb to 16k in a Lanc and go hammer a base.  Each to their own, right?

So, that's why I'm largely flying alone.

What's amusing is my style of buffing isnt what Westy & Laz are complaining about.  I don't particularly like the B-17 since its slow and hasn't got the ordinance layout I like.  If you are going all that distance, bring all you can carry!  I like the Arado and Lancasters a lot, and sometimes I tempt fate and tke the Ju88...although many of those rides dont make it back   :)

So, its just timing.  Yes, multiple buffs are fun, but I haven't had many want to buff along with me.  

Did I answer your question adequately?

Offline Wilbus

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2001, 01:44:00 PM »
Go knight Lepaul and I'll take as much time as you need to escort you and your buff friends.

Not a P38 dweeb though  :D
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

Liberating Livestock since 1998, recently returned from a 5 year Sheep-care training camp.

Offline LePaul

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2001, 02:00:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy MOL:
My statements were perfectly clear. Calling my POV a "whine" and that I infer you and others who pilot bombers to be "evil" is how you brought us down this path.

Re-read this thread and the other buff-bithing ones.  We've been called every name in the book.  Your opinions are shared by Lazs, who makes it crystal clear that buffs are not wanted.  That's where I infer from.

 
Quote
My point stand. It's too easy for a no skill bomber/jabo pilot to single handedly ruin the fun of a half dozen or more people.

Your point here eludes me.  How is the newbie/moron buff ruining your fun?  He's a bomber, and bombing.  Wouldn't you be ruining his fun shooting him down?

And if we are touching on No Skill things, then lets match flying an La7 versus a 109G10 or P-51D?  Surely anyone can raise hell jumpnig into a super-dee-douper fighter like the La7, N1k, etc etc...but are they ruining peoples fun with their F-16~like handling?  Yes.  Do we see the same anti-those-airplanes sentiment?  Somewhat, but no where near this anti-buff sentiment.

 
Quote
I never mentioned group efforts, I single out the solitary dimwad who has no ability what so ever of making a capture of the base they are bombing but they come in at 15k and make one hit and run (or hit and die).

I fly 90% of my sorties with just me.  I'm not a dimwad and if Im egging a base, its in support of a capture.  But in any case, you have radar, you have the ability to see these guys coming to plunder, yet fault them for doing so.  Its a war sim, I really do not understand this "Foul! No Fair" argument.  While I do not understand why someone would drop a field without caturing it, if he does, so what?  You have the means to stop them.

 
Quote
Also, no one told bomber pilots to go fly H2H if they want to bomb. Yet that's the lame response some people cough up every time when anyone speaks up about how easy it is for a few to disrupt the enjoyment of many.

That's a pretty broad statement.
You guys indicate you like the furballs more than the captures/strategy.  Yet, you constantly comlpain we are ruining everyones fun bombing and capturing your bases.  I just do not see the posts to support that argument.  Where are the posts that read like "Yea, we were having a great battle at A3 then the stupid reset happen" or the like?

 
Quote
I do not propose weakening bombers guns. They die easy enough. I do not propose abolishing bombers, they are fun in thier own right and also make nice targets.

Agreed!

 
Quote
I do propose the skill level needed be raised to somewhere approaching the lowest level of some complexity. That's something you "bomber guys" would have no problem with isn't it? I mean you want a sim right? Or would you prefer HTC rename Aces High to "B17-III: Online" and make the fighters AI operated?

Ah, the spin and attacks.

So now we aren't good enough, nor deserve the ability to hit the targets we fly for so long to get to.  Nevermind if we survive enemy aircraft, acks etc.  Well, if you are going to insist that all bomber pilots have PHDs and have completed "Westy's School for Anal Retentive Pilots Opposed to Field Captures", what do you propose we up the ante for in the fighters?  :D  Where's the "required skill level" for guys to yank around in an La7 or more complex fighters like F4s, P51s, etc etc?

So let me get this straight, you want *limitations*, rather, complexities, on our rides, but none on yours?

I'm not making fun (well, dammit, maybe a little), I'm just trying to make sure I understand you correctly.

Finally, you (or someone) asked about how I felt about the bomb accuracy?  To me, its kinda too easy, but that's how HTC has it setup.  >shrug<  The zoom-ability almost makes it too easy.  But, in the buff game, GETTING to the target has always been my biggest challenge.

Offline LePaul

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2001, 02:06:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wilbus:
Go knight Lepaul and I'll take as much time as you need to escort you and your buff friends.

Not a P38 dweeb though   :D

I do fly Knight!  But I'm on the east coast of the USA, and you are usually tucked away and in bed by time I get online, you dweeb  :D

Offline Wotan

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2001, 02:08:00 PM »
bd5

lol mate i've seen you milkrunning cities at 5k in a lanc which is fine by me strat targets require strategic weapons.

I have heard you call for escorts and for people not calling your 6. But none of this is necessary in ah.

You say us fighters should adjust to the way you fly.

But given the impact buffs have on gameplay (there ability to disrupt the by far majorities fun). Most buffers aren't planning there sorties in coordination with a base capture. Most have no real plan of rtbing safely.

My squad is almost always number 1 in buffs. We coordinate our attacks and they are done in conjuntion with a base capture. Mostly we take a b26 and jabos. We have rolled on 7 bases in about 2 hours one night.

I see lanc pilots fly to a base bomb the hangers alone leave ack up and the vh up. This tells me that they are just out to stop my fun. ju88 il2 tbm and 26 are perfect for main arena gameplay. Alone none of them can disrupt my few hours of fun.

No niki or spit or chog or gv has the ability to stop my fun but when I see a 25k lone lanc doin his best to stop my fun I hate it.

You will no doudt say "well what about me and my fun" well you are a minority. Most fly fighters and by far most enjoy a good furball. If the price of your solitary fun impacts the majority people will "pile on buff pilots"

My reply isn't a debate but any answer to the title of this thread, those are the reasons for me. Others may yell about buff gun lethality but i only do that when they kill me  :)

<S>

Offline LePaul

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Wotan:
bd5

lol mate i've seen you milkrunning cities at 5k in a lanc which is fine by me strat targets require strategic weapons.

I have heard you call for escorts and for people not calling your 6. But none of this is necessary in ah.

You say us fighters should adjust to the way you fly.

<rest snipped, interesting, but repettive...>

<S>

Yup, you hammered me a few evenings ago trying to pummel that city which was literally 2 miles from the end of the runway.  Between you and the acks re-upping as I overflew, I got creamed   :)

I've also asked for escorts and been ticked off that in a area full of friendlies, no one calls your six.  I'm fairly certain I am not the only person to react in such a fashion.  I'm certain I am not the first buff or goon that's asked for escort, and 99% of the time, I don't get it.  My bird is too slow for them to wait up.

But then you infer that me, my pompous self, desires for you to fly the way I fly.  I do not.  If that was the case, I'd be calling for your favorite rides to be toned down, re-examined of removed.  But I'm not.  I'm sticking up for the bomber-bashing that is going on.  And, for doing so, guys like you try to paint me as wanting me to force you into playing the game my way.

Again, I'm not.

I am, however, playing the game as it was designed.  Fighters knock out enemy bad guys, bombers destroy targets, then people move to capture the base.  Clearly the game is designed with that in mind.  But, for saying so, and for me to point out the obvious, you guys again continue this vicious circle that its not fair bombers can bomb...etc etc

So how is the game supposed to be played, Wotan?  You infer that the strategy game isnt correct, how to you perceive it?

Offline jdm3

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
If you are worried about just having fun, then I think that the perk system is far more disruptive than any of the aircraft performance.  

I understand that the B-17s performance at altitude may be a bit more than normal, but I don't see those guns firing themselves?  And where the bases are so close together getting to altitude is a pretty rare thing anyway.

I am sorry if you don't approve of a bomber nailing the hangers on a base.  But they are the easiest things to hit.  Be happy the craters don't seem to have any effect as the runway would be more of a tactical target than a hanger!  I can just imagine the complaining about that!

But as a relatively new player to the game, I have been at it for almost two weeks now?  Not long enough to master, but long enough to have a few victories.  Yet I don't seem to have any more than half a dozen points.  Out of my reach are some of the more fun planes to fly.  So I would say there are lots of things that need to be worked out?

-Jim
'abunabi'

Offline SpitLead

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
Well, from my perspective anyone who gets shot down by a bomber and whines is just not willing to admit to themselves that their attack tactics were poor or they're too self centered to admit that the bomber gunner was pretty darn good, or you were flat just unlucky on that pass.  

Once I figured out the best way to attack bombers, my kill vs death ratio went up considerably (I think my last 2 tours were a 5-1 kill ratio).  That, and recognizing that patience is a virtue when it comes to setting up the attack and to not just go blasting away from the 6 o'clock position because I'd been "chasing this guy for the last 10-15 minutes" trying to gain altitude.

Enough said...

Offline sling322

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2001, 02:55:00 PM »
As a person who flies both bombers and fighters it just seems to me that you guys are fighting over nothing.  Most of the time you will see a furball develop near a field that one team or the other is trying to capture.  

Sorry to disappoint you "furballers", but that is just how things go....its logic.  I mean, think about it.....knits wanna take A2 from the rooks....rooks try to defend A2....furball develops....there is a lot of dying going on by both sides.....someone says on country channel, "damn...we need to kill those hangars!!"  Then here comes the bomber to help his side in the base capture.  Ala...ruining your fun so to speak.  Why can you not just move along the front to the next developing furball?

Deny it all you want, but that is the main focus of this game in the "Main Arena"....base capture.  If you dont want base capture to be your focus, you have other options.  I know everybody wants to fly where there are more people, but what are you going to do....the game as it is now in the Main Arena is focused on base capture.  As harsh as it may sound, if you dont want bombers influencing your furball that was more than likely the product of an attempted bse capture, then maybe you should consider the DA or the CT....  <shrug>

Dont get me wrong fellas....I love a good furball just as much as the next guy...over the time I have spent here in this game I have developed a little more interest in the fighters over the bombers, but I understand at the same time that if I just wanna furball and duke it out that I have to realize that folks on my team are trying to take a base and eventually the hangars will be killed.  

Unless you dont wanna head into the DA to do your furballing its just a necessary evil that you have to put up with.  

This issue seems to be more of a players vs. gameplay thing than a bomberguy vs. fighterguy thing to me.  I just wish there was a way to find a compromise that satisfied everyone.

Offline Wotan

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2001, 03:04:00 PM »
Jim

theres only 3 perk planes and I have 3200 fighter perks. Do you feel cheated because you cant be 1 of the 3 people who wants to fly a temp or 152 or 234? How are these 3 planes taking away from your ah fun?

Just wait till an ack star kills ya while your in 1  :)

bd5 you are saying that we should adjust to your style. When we need guys flying 30 min to provide hi cap to stop a suicide lone buffer whos dicke auto can out fly a zeke.
Most folks pop in and out of ah just to get a couple of quick sorties in.

The main arena is what the majority of main pilots make it. And by far the majority (demonstrated everyday) prefer what apache already stated
1st fighter vrs fighter (ur furball)
2nd jabo then fighter vrs fighter (furball again)
3rd BnZr's who pick targets out of the furball

vulchers fit in here as well (mostly likely 1st but none will admit it :))

buff pilots wether friendly or nme are in direct contrast to what the majority wants.

When my squad takes a field we usually just kill ack and the vh and then enjoy vulchin the piss out of who ever ups.(yup we admit it) I hate it when a guy on my side thinks hes helpin by flying a buff over and killing the fhs. And I am not alone.

I have taken 190f8s zekes 205s and deacked and captured  bases with no buff help at all.

Buffs are not integral in base capture and imo are a hinderence.

Again most buff sorties in the main are not flown in coordination with a base capture.

Laz is right most are just attention starved as evident by the numerous times I've seen them gloating on ch 1. Ha Ha we got ur dar or no more fhs at base axx.

You asked the question no arguement you make will change the fact that the impact a single suicide buffer has on gameplay is too great given the style of play the majority of main pilots enjoy.

You can keep banging your head on the wall but this fact wont change.

Offline Westy MOL

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2001, 03:19:00 PM »
"So let me get this straight, you want *limitations*, rather, complexities, on our rides, but none on yours?"

 Wrong. I'm all for pushing the realism envelope in online sims.

 And please, don't compare your milk runs using never-a-dud, never-a-miss bombs and an interface with an extremely simplistic replication of just a mere fraction of what a real life bombardier had to do with what "virtual pilots" do in the MA online "aircombat."  It's like comparing the difficult task of sitting up on ones bellybutton with someone else who's able to ride a bicycle.
 
 Westy

Offline AN

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2001, 03:33:00 PM »
The more I read this thread, the more I keep thinking one word...

It's not a very popular word around here, but I'm gonna say it... no, I'm gonna shout it anyway...

FIGHTERTOWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<g,d,r>

anRky

Offline sling322

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #58 on: September 21, 2001, 03:47:00 PM »
They wouldnt go AN....then they wouldnt have any buffs "ruining their fun" to whine about....   :D  <g,d,r>

Offline Holder

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Ok, fighter jocks, why is it "pig pile" on the BUFFs?
« Reply #59 on: September 21, 2001, 04:31:00 PM »
As one who flies fighters, fighter-bombers, bombers and goons and often volunteers to gun in a bomber (and drive PT boats, tanks, etc.), I do what is necessary for my team to win because that is how this game is currently designed. If the "strat" element were removed, I wouldn't be here. If the bombers were removed, I wouldn't be here. If the Spitfire were removed ....

I can honestly say that high buffs knocking down my teams hangers drive me nuts. I can also say no one loves it more than I when I can sneak under a Lanc and blow its guts out, and I accept my fate as a Lanc driver when it happens to me. I love taking out an approaching fighter from the chin position in a B17 because he is dumb enough to make an approach like that. I've flown a TBM with a squaddie in the rear seat and with brains and a bit of luck we defeated a FW-190    :D. The way it is now this game has a lot going for it for a lot of different people. If I ruin one furball (which I doubt is likely) by bombing a base, well, there are always more furballs (which are pretty pointless in themselves, a furball never won a war).

Why don't buff drivers gang up on fields, Apache? Probably because we have as many problems getting organised as anyone. But it has been done, and will likely be done more in the future. It is pretty awsome watching a squad of B-17s sailing over a base and taking out building after building.   :cool:

So, why is a squadron of bombers more tolerable than a single bomber? Why should 6 bomber pilots ruin the fun of 6 fighter pilots? Why should 6 fighter pilots be able to down 6 bomber pilots and ruin their 30 minute flight to the enemy HQ? BECAUSE THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

Bomber flotillas would happen a lot more if we had 100 dedicated buff drivers up every night then sure, we could make the Nordens less accurate. But until then the problems of getting a heavily loaded Lanc up to altitude and getting to a field are enough without having to get 10 or more bombers over it at the same time. As a "lone wolf" buff pilot I have died more often than I've gotten to the target, often by a single fighter pilot flying CAP. I guess some guys are luckier than me.   :rolleyes:

So, there are definate problems with ONE bomber (B-17) with high-alt manouverability and being able to shoot through itself (and ack-starring but that is an attitude problem
 :mad: ). But the other tradeoffs in the design of buffs have been thought through carefully. After all, if a single German FW-190 had been stupid enough to attack a single, healthy B-17 full of alert and anxious Americans in WWII, I suspect the 190 would not come off all that well. So, why should one do so in this game?

My $0.02 in the pot. (Oh yes LePaul is a squaddie of mine but my attitude has nothing to do with that fact.)    ;)

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Holder ]

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Holder ]