sort it out

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Udie
No get it through your head.  No international court has the right to try an American, PERIOD. Never will.  Don't like it?  Hehe cool that makes me feel a little bit better.   Basicly you can kiss our collective asses.  Want to adopt our constitution and make the EU the 51st state?  Then maybe we can talk, othewise keep your court to yourself. We have better laws here.

Udie, just out of curiosity. When you invade Afghanistan and ship off their citizens to the US and put them on trial for various crimes. What right do you base that on? Just the right of the strong? But isnt that kinda dangerous, because if you claim the right of the strong, what then would give you any right to object when someone like Saddam Hussein does the same thing?

As for what country has the best laws, I suspect everyone feels their country have the superior laws. You can keep your constitution, and we will keep ours ok? And thanks for the offer, but I think we have it pretty good over here in Europe, and I'd much rather keep things the way they are here. (and for some weird reason, most of the world doesnt hate Europe. Maybe we are doing somethings right)

[koala]

There was a reason why the EU wanted to stay out of Bosnia you know...

Yeah, the same reason Chamberlain turned Checzoslovakia over to Hitler.  You figured if you closed your eyes maybe all the "bad stuff" would just go away.

In your own back yard.

[Udie]

......

[Udie]

Originally posted by Hortlund

And you Udie, are a very nice gentleman. I thank you for your thoughtful inputs to this discussion, and I hope that you will some day let me buy you a beer.

[Udie]

Originally posted by Hortlund

Udie, if you wanted no part of Bosnia or Kosovo, then why did you come over here in the first place? I have one name for you: Madeleine Albright. As I tried to say, the EU did not want to get involved in Bosnia and Kosovo for various reasons. Just like the US does not want to get involved in the current India-Pakistan conflict. Apparently this is something you might not want to admit, nevertheless it is true.

 Of course you didn't want to get envolved you guys appear to have no problem with genocide on your turf...  That's why we got in, that and to cover slick willie's arse.



And seriously Udie what kind of quote is this:
Something about seeing people murdered and placed in camps and starved to death that makes us leap into action.
Once again we return to the plight of the Native Americans. You should read up on your own history Udie. Hypocritical? Apparently not, after all it was so long ago. Well, what about the camps you guys built for your Japanese citizens in 42 was it? Could that qualify as being placed in a camp? I guess not huh?

 Yeah we did the Indians wrong.  Yup we put the japanese in camps.  A few generations ago we made up with the native Americans and started actually respecting the reservations we put them on.  Now they have their own rules to play by.   You also may remember that we let the Japanese go after the war and paid them reperations.  I'm still looking for the millions of graves over here from the GENOCIDE, oops it didn't happen.  That kind of stuff goes on where you are at.


So apparently Americans doesnt like seeing people get murdered or placed in camps. Yet America did not lift a finger when Rwanda lost its mind and killed itself a couple of years ago. How many killed was that? 1 000 000? Who went in there to try to stop the slaughter? The Belgians and the French. The US however, for some reason you might want to explain to me, chose to stay out of that one. As well as Zaire/Congo too.


 Ask president Clinton why not.  There were plenty of us here that believed we should have been in Africa er... .wait we are there now and have been for 50 years or so.  It's called the pease corps it's called missionaries.  Where is Sweden?    Again, exactly what countries has your country helped?  I can think of none...

Well, perhaps our idea of problem solving is a bit more complicated than "send in the cruise missiles and blow them all up". The problem with the US and what you did in Bosnia and Kosovo was that you guys went in, gunz blazing. But (as usual) you really dont have a clue what to do after the smoke has cleared. When you go in like that, you create lots of hate, lots of misery, and lots of damage. Then you sail back to your side of the pond and look for the next target. Meanwhile, we are stuck here with clearing out the mess you left behind.


 F&ck you dude you don't know what the hell you are talking about.  We've been cleaning up your dead bodies for about 89 to 90 years now.  

 

Next time just leave us the /&%#¤ alone.

 Believe me I wish we would.  As far as I'm concerned people like you deserve to rot in the hell on earth that your hemisphere keeps inflicting upon this planet.  Lucky for you though we have enough friends on that side of the planet and we love life too much to let you guys destroy it.   I'm still trying to think of which world war was started over here.  So go back to living in your security that was provided by the blood sweat and tears of my country.   Your welcome.




And you Udie, are a very nice gentleman. I thank you for your thoughtful inputs to this discussion, and I hope that you will some day let me buy you a beer. [/QUOTE]

 Absolutely not.   I would poor said beer on top of your head and tell you to get the hell away from me.

[RRAM]

Let's see

Originally posted by Udie

 Sorry for the tone of my posts but Im getting tired of Euro's trashing/bashing America.  We're supposed to be friends remember?

Hummmm, Udie, from what I see, what Hortlund is making is not Trashing America, but just being critic with it. I think that americans in general don't take well direct critics about USA, and feel trashed if we do emphasize some defects your nation MAY have (I'm not saying hortlund's right or not, I'm talking about a more wide view here; in the 30 months that I've been around here, this is what I see ).


I won't talk on Hortlund's name here, but in mine. Yes, Euros and americans are friends and have been for a long while. And this is as much as for historical reasons, as, (like someone said not that long ago in this same board) because USA and europe go hand by hand in so many things that we can't simply allow ourselves get angry at each others . We all live in our own countries, but we live in a world so we have to deal with the rest of it, is a law of life .


Now, it's a fact that we are friends, and that most of Europe owes USA a debt of honor for what you did here in WWII (and,yes, I said "most" and not "all"....Remember, Spain owes not too much to USA, after all Franco stayed until 1975 only because american support . Still I think that your intervention was basical for the freedom we live in today).


Agreeing on that point, you must understand now, that our generation lives in today's world,that Hitler died 57 years ago, and that communist Russia is gone since more or less 15 years ago (Since Glasnost until today). That means that from this point forward, those things will be part of the PAST for the youth of today.

People may know that once upon a time you helped europe. But people live in TODAY's world, not constantly remembering the world of 50 years ago. After all, human people have a limited memory on that regard. Today we live in a different world than that of 20 years ago...you can't live with your eyes put on what you did in the past.


Today you're the most powerful nation in the world, a nation with lots of good things, and with no less bad ones (as any nation in this world ), but overall a nation to respect and in certain matters to admire. You've got the economic heart of the world, and most of the political power in this planet is in your side of the pond...

but that -IMHO- doesn't mean you're OVER the international community. By refusing to being part of the international jury being formed at this point, you're telling the world that you, as a nation, and your people, as citizens of it, are OVER the rest of the international community.

This has nothing to do with history ,or with who did what in the past...this is something wich has a meaning in TODAY's world. With this measure you're separating yourselfs from the rest of the world. You live in a community but you don't want to live by the rules the rest of it lives by.

And that is something that can't be done, IMO. And here is the heart of the matter for me. Is a tendence I'm seeing again since some time ago...you're closing into your own nation once again. You're isolating yourself from the rest of the world, just like you did some years ago. You are once again closing into your own greatness, forgetting you're part of a bigger world.


But this ain't no 20-30's...we live in 2002 and the consecuences of falling in the same error may be much bigger than what they were 70 years ago....Learn the past not to repeat it in the future. You're part of a big proud nation, but even part of a bigger world...

if you forget that, then we're in for a big problem .

That's my take on this matter...and this is how I see it. Mind you, I'm not american and I'm just 24...so you might disregard this as a kid's opinion ...but ,well, this is what I think.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by RRAM
Let's see




Hummmm, Udie, from what I see, what Hortlund is making is not Trashing America, but just being critic with it. I think that americans in general don't take well direct critics about USA, and feel trashed if we do emphasize some defects your nation MAY have  

Kinda like Spaniards with professional Soccer players eh?

[RRAM]

Originally posted by Ripsnort


Kinda like Spaniards with professional Soccer players eh?

now, stay on topic!!!

[Wingnut_0]

Holy Hell, that's the most single respectful and down right truthful post that I have ever read out of you RRAM.


Bravo!

[Udie]

Originally posted by RRAM
Let's see




Hummmm, Udie, from what I see, what Hortlund is making is not Trashing America, but just being critic with it. I think that americans in general don't take well direct critics about USA, and feel trashed if we do emphasize some defects your nation MAY have (I'm not saying hortlund's right or not, I'm talking about a more wide view here; in the 30 months that I've been around here, this is what I see ).


I won't talk on Hortlund's name here, but in mine. Yes, Euros and americans are friends and have been for a long while. And this is as much as for historical reasons, as, (like someone said not that long ago in this same board) because USA and europe go hand by hand in so many things that we can't simply allow ourselves get angry at each others . We all live in our own countries, but we live in a world so we have to deal with the rest of it, is a law of life .


Now, it's a fact that we are friends, and that most of Europe owes USA a debt of honor for what you did here in WWII (and,yes, I said "most" and not "all"....Remember, Spain owes not too much to USA, after all Franco stayed until 1975 only because american support . Still I think that your intervention was basical for the freedom we live in today).


Agreeing on that point, you must understand now, that our generation lives in today's world,that Hitler died 57 years ago, and that communist Russia is gone since more or less 15 years ago (Since Glasnost until today). That means that from this point forward, those things will be part of the PAST for the youth of today.

People may know that once upon a time you helped europe. But people live in TODAY's world, not constantly remembering the world of 50 years ago. After all, human people have a limited memory on that regard. Today we live in a different world than that of 20 years ago...you can't live with your eyes put on what you did in the past.


Today you're the most powerful nation in the world, a nation with lots of good things, and with no less bad ones (as any nation in this world ), but overall a nation to respect and in certain matters to admire. You've got the economic heart of the world, and most of the political power in this planet is in your side of the pond...

but that -IMHO- doesn't mean you're OVER the international community. By refusing to being part of the international jury being formed at this point, you're telling the world that you, as a nation, and your people, as citizens of it, are OVER the rest of the international community.

This has nothing to do with history ,or with who did what in the past...this is something wich has a meaning in TODAY's world. With this measure you're separating yourselfs from the rest of the world. You live in a community but you don't want to live by the rules the rest of it lives by.

And that is something that can't be done, IMO. And here is the heart of the matter for me. Is a tendence I'm seeing again since some time ago...you're closing into your own nation once again. You're isolating yourself from the rest of the world, just like you did some years ago. You are once again closing into your own greatness, forgetting you're part of a bigger world.


But this ain't no 20-30's...we live in 2002 and the consecuences of falling in the same error may be much bigger than what they were 70 years ago....Learn the past not to repeat it in the future. You're part of a big proud nation, but even part of a bigger world...

if you forget that, then we're in for a big problem .

That's my take on this matter...and this is how I see it. Mind you, I'm not american and I'm just 24...so you might disregard this as a kid's opinion ...but ,well, this is what I think.

 WHEW now that is refreshing  Thanks for posting this.  After a quick read I don't see anything that I would contradict in your post RAM  You are right about TODAY's world.  One thing to remember about our world today is that there are a LOT of people/countries out there that HATE the USA and what we stand for.  They will use any tool at their disposal to get at us and hurt us.  This would be a HUGE tool for them that IMO we can not let them have.  Remember not one month after 9/11 the USA was voted off the UN human rights commitee and SYRIA was voted on in our place.  That right there tells me all I need to know.

 Like I said earlier, this may be arrogant and I'm sorry if it is, adopt our constitution and laws and maybe we can talk about this international court.  As it stands now it's no good from our (USA) viewpoint.   Why should we be forced to agree to something we disagree with?  Where's the democracy in that?


 and for the record I'm sorry about Franco......

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Udie
Well in that vain,  what gives you the right to even come here and post?  I'll tell you what gives us the right,  the FACT that we kept 1/2 of Europe and the 80% of the rest of the world from emploding for 60+ years.  You don't like it?  Tough toejam buddy build your own army and kick ours out

[/b]
Fine Udie, gloves are off.

To answer your post I think I'm gonna divide it in segments.

First, I fail to see the connection between me posting on the internet and US troops entering Afghanistan capturing terrorists. Perhaps you could elaborate on that one a bit further?

Anyway, so I asked you what gives you the right to invade Afghanistan and ship off their citizens to the US and put them on trial for various crimes. Your answer to this is: "the FACT that we kept 1/2 of Europe and the 80% of the rest of the world from emploding for 60+ years"

A "normal" answer would be somewhere along the lines of "The Afghan government was harboring and aiding terrorist organizations, these organizations has carried out a series of attacks against the US, and against US interests all over the world. We therefore claim the right to self defence against these terrorists and anyone aiding them or protecting them".

But no, to you Udie, the fact that the US "kept half of Europe and 80% of the rest of the world from "emploding" gives you that right. I interpret this as "we have the right of the strong"

There weren't over 100 million murders/ war deaths on my hemisphere of the planet last century.

[/b]
So what? How many war dead in western europe since the creation of the EU? And during the past century you have probably alot more deaths on your side of the pond just counting your homicide statistics.

Last thing the US needs is people like you sitting in judgement over us. Of course you'll do it anyway as is the nature of a hypocrite.

[/b]
Do you actually understand what the word hypocrite means? Because it is painfully obvious to everyone reading this thread that the only hypocrite in this conversation is you.

As for the moral high ground, you are damn right that we in Europe have the moral high ground. I suppose that is pissing you off somewhat. That and the classical american inferiority complex.

Pretty easy to sit back and critisize the one country that has tried to help in most of the trouble spots in the world.  Why don't you put up or shut up?

[/b]
This would actually be extremely funny if it wasnt so tragic. I suppose you are just another victim of the combination of poor education and an image of the world created by cnn. Do you actually believe that the motivation for what the US has done since 1945 has been charity? Let me make a list for you Udie. You tell me which ones of these countries you went into out of the goodness of your hearts, and which ones you went into out of pure econimic interests or other self interests.

Korea
Taiwan
Vietnam
Cambodia
Laos
Nicaragua
Chile
Kosovo/Serbia
Bosnia
Sudan
Somalia
Iraq
Iran
Kuweit
Libya
Lebanon
El Salvador
Grenada
Panama
Cuba
Honduras
 

   I can look at each of my paycheck stubs for my whole working career and see the money that I personaly have paid to make the world a better place.  I'd like to go do something hands on to help the world but I have to work and earn a living so I can survive in this world.  I can look at my family members who served and went and actually hands on helped people.  You on the otherhand can sit there and squeak about stuff that somebody else had the balls enough to try and fix the worlds problems.  You will sit there and squeak and moan and groan if we do nothing, then you will turn around and moan and groan about what we do when we finaly get tired of hearing your pompass whining.  In short  screw you and the horse you rode in on.    You want to try and help fix the problems we'll listen to you.  If your going to squeak about what we're doing to actually help,  f%ck you.

[/b]
Mostly incoherent ramblings here, not much to comment.  

And why the /%¤ would we want to help you with whatever problems you have when you have some screwed "we have the God given right to do whatever we please, so *¤&¤ you all" -attitude

 When we envade Afganistan we do it to protect OUR nation because there are alot of people there that want to kill us.

[/b]
Well, Im not complaining, I have no sympathy for the arabs. But if you are going to invade every country because there are alot of people there who wants to kill you, you should start with France.

If inocent people get killed, well I'm truely sorry but they shouldn't have let the evil mother f$ckers take control of their country, oh wait that's America's fault too.

[/b]
Sometimes Udie, the world is a little bit more complex than that.  

The keep the terrorist/enemy combatants/POW's what ever you want to call them at Gitmo so they won't kill us anymore.  Who knows what will happen to them?  I really don't care, they want me dead so I want the same for them.

[/b]
As I said, I have no problem with the US invading Afghanistan and shipping off the terrorists to Gitmo. What I do have a problem with is the hypocricy of your statements about what right you have to do that. I think the US has the right to obliterate pretty much any country in the mid east that supports or harbors terrorists. I dont think this is a God given right to americans though. I think the US has the right to self defence, just as every country has. But I also think that the US needs to follow the laws, just as every other country does.

Well you know I don't see them banging down the doors to get into your country.  That tells me something......  Oh and get your stinkin UN out of my country......

You have to start watching the news or something. We have like 1000 Africans trying to cross the straits of Gibraltar every week. We have hundreds of immigrants stopped every day between Italy and Albania.

And it is not my UN, its yours. Well you are the ones who were the driving force behind creating it anyway.

[AKSWulfe]

Sorry Hortlund, there ain't no way in hell that we have more deaths related to our "homicides" than Europe.

Sure, we killed a lot of Indians... but of course, when you look at those times- those were the times of conquest and conquer. So you are basically comparing apples to bananas.

In the '40s alone, Germany erradicated well over 6 million jews. We may have killed that many Indians, I dunno the exact figure... but this was in 1940s compared to the 1700s. We definitely killed far more of ourselves during our Civil War than we did Native Americans, or the African slaves we had...

I hardly doubt we have more homicide deaths in our own country than Europe does since it's creation.. unless you are counting the Civil War... but even then I'm willing to bet we don't even come close to Europe.
-SW

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Udie
Where is Sweden? Again, exactly what countries has your country helped?  I can think of none...

[/b]
LOL, that is probably because you would not be able to point out Sweden on a map. (hint it is not the place with the alps and the chocholade)

 F&ck you dude you don't know what the hell you are talking about.  We've been cleaning up your dead bodies for about 89 to 90 years now.  

[/b]
You should make a list of priorities. Nr 1 on that list should be "get an education".

As far as I'm concerned people like you deserve to rot in the hell on earth that your hemisphere keeps inflicting upon this planet.  Lucky for you though we have enough friends on that side of the planet and we love life too much to let you guys destroy it.

[/b]
Because if there is one thing we can trust the US with, it is our environment, after all the Kyoto accoard proved that...uh..no wait..

 So go back to living in your security that was provided by the blood sweat and tears of my country.   Your welcome.

[/b]
Yeah, back to the history books Udie, why dont you count how many times the US has saved or protected Sweden.

[Thrawn]

I gotta agree with Hortland on one point.  Udie, it is painful watching you try and debate something.  You are all over the place and are not very concise with your points.  I make is very hard to understand what you are trying to say.  Please, pickup a book on critical thought and logic, or somethng.


PS: Yeah, what  RAM said.

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by Hortlund

Yeah, back to the history books Udie, why dont you count how many times the US has saved or protected Sweden. [/B]

I hardly doubt Hitler would of stopped conquering lands if he had taken Britain. He had a non-aggression pact with Russia, look how long that lasted.
-SW