Author Topic: Tuskegee airmen  (Read 1392 times)

Offline whgates3

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1426
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2002, 10:18:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
Taking nothing away from the Tuskegee group, met one at an airshow in Lakeland once, but due to there late deployment and then the location of their deployment, they did have it "easier" than the earlier pilots.


see this

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/WW2History-ErichHartmann.html#p51vshartmann

cool story - Hartmann was in southern Europe dogfighting Italy-based Allied fighters in late '44/early '45, when the Red Tails were in the same area.  
As for why there is no Hartmann movie - the average movie is about 90 minutes long - or about 15 seconds per Hartmann kill.

Offline hawk220

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1127
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2002, 10:25:02 AM »
I read on a Tuskegee site that the Red Tails sank an enemy destroyer with MG fire..I think THAT is badass!

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2002, 01:16:47 PM »
As I said, without getting personal (yes, Oedipus, you), this quasihistorical crap is just the thing which pushed me towards flying LW. Portraying pilots who individually shot down hundreds of planes as idiots just gets to me.

I just love to bounce on poor kiddies who take off in P51s and expect to rack up kills here.

Offline AKDejaVu

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5049
      • http://www.dbstaines.com
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2002, 01:37:39 PM »
Hristo,

You are seriously erring when you try to use German aces to describe every pilot that flew for Germany.  For every ace, there's at least 5 idiots.  The allies had their share of them... as did the Germans.

It seems to me that these clips were actually more realistic than most dogfights.  Chaos and bad explanation for just exactly what transpired.  I bet that sums up about 80% of all WW2 engagements.

Its one of the reasons why individual pilots stood out from the rest.  Their ability to keep it together in total confusion.  To make the right decisions when it really mattered and your life was on the line.  That's a rare quality.  Its a quality that few people consider in the "I could be a good fighter pilot" threads I see occasionally.

And... to whomever knocked the destroyer scene.  That did happen according to history.  The characters in the movie even joke about "we both know it was luck".  Its called the golden bb... they hit the ammo cache.

AKDejaVu

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2002, 01:41:21 PM »
Fair enough, Deja.

Still, pilots like top LW aces deserve at least one movie. Their score never was and never will be surpassed.

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2002, 01:43:08 PM »
Yes, but the German aces were better. And they had to fight against hopeless odds most of the time.

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2002, 01:45:28 PM »
Since this is a game, I can take my roleplaying in here, now can I ?

I'd fly tie fighter over x-wing anyday !

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2002, 01:51:42 PM »
LOL

I dunno why really, but I think almost all of the LW sticks would rather fly tie than xwing.

Offline Curval

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11572
      • http://n/a
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2002, 01:59:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
LOL

I dunno why really, but I think almost all of the LW sticks would rather fly tie than xwing.


I guess my son is gonna be a LW...when I suggested he was Luke Skywalker while playing lightsabres with him he frowned and said "I am Emperor"...he turns 3 on August 5....

(Hortlund...did you get my e-mail?)
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline HFMudd

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 609
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2002, 02:12:07 PM »
Quote
Yes, but the German aces were better. And they had to fight against hopeless odds most of the time


The truly hopeless odds the German pilots faced was the odds of managing to get out before the end the war.  They just did not get rotated out, there were too few pilots and too many allied planes for that.  I can't think of any reason why an allied pilot, if they flew for the duration of the war or of their luck (whichever came first), could not have achieved 350 victories.

It is also true that the Tuskegee Airmen never lost a bomber.  But there was also a price paid for this performance.  Their commander would not allow them to pursue the enemy, they always had to hang with bombers.  This had two results: 1) It held the Tuskegee Airmen's victory count lower than it would have been otherwise and 2) Allowed a German pilot to come back, a little older and little wiser, another day.  It is kind of ironic that one of the "mistakes" in doctrine that the Germans made in the Battle of Britain is a source of pride for a squadron on Allied side later isn't it?

Aside: I'm at lunch and so can't look it up, isn't it also true that Eric Hartman never lost a wingman?

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2002, 02:39:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval


I guess my son is gonna be a LW...when I suggested he was Luke Skywalker while playing lightsabres with him he frowned and said "I am Emperor"...he turns 3 on August 5....

(Hortlund...did you get my e-mail?)


Heh, yeah, I'm gonna have to get my kid interested in Star Wars soon too (he is 1,5).

(you should have my reply by now, Im heading over to the DA now)

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2002, 02:46:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
LOL

I dunno why really, but I think almost all of the LW sticks would rather fly tie than xwing.


pffffffffffffffffffff .....



You know the answer : ROLL RATE !
 and it was designed by Kurt tank ...

Offline Curval

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11572
      • http://n/a
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2002, 02:55:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund


Heh, yeah, I'm gonna have to get my kid interested in Star Wars soon too (he is 1,5).

(you should have my reply by now, Im heading over to the DA now)


Still at work bud...gotta be later...

Be careful getting him into Star Wars...he pesters me CONSTANTLY to play "Rogue Squadron"..which is so pathetically easy compared to AH that it bores me to tears.

Plus...your wife will get upset by the number of times he will "shoot her" or "light sabre her" when she is trying to get a point across to him.  He gets into NO trouble...that falls on you for getting him into Star Wars in the first place.

:D
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline KG45

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 435
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2002, 03:36:09 PM »
it might also be important to note that the Tuskeegee airmen, because of the racism that kept them out of combat, spent many extra months, training before being deployed. probably the best trained fighter group sent into combat in WW2.
all you fascists, you're bound to lose...

Offline Karnak

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23047
Tuskegee airmen
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2002, 05:56:25 PM »
Hristo,

Don't believe everything you read about ubermensch pilots.

Marseille never got 17 in one day.  He claimed 17, but that is a far sight from actually getting them.  As it happens, British records show that they had less than 17 aircraft operating in the area that day and did not even lose all of them.

When you read about a pilot getting kills with 3 rounds of 7.92mm ammo, be very, very skeptical.
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
             As she remembers me-