Another point for the no "God" crowd

[Kieran]

Eskimo-

Aren't there enough frivolous lawsuits?

Have you read the studies on the change in society with reference to the "hair-trigger" phenomena? Everyone is so concerned about their personal rights they are ready to explode on anything that infringes in any minor way upon those rights. Examples include heightened cultural awareness, frivolous lawsuits, and road rage. It seems few people are left that can handle even a small slight. Everyone has a point to make, and seem willing to go to the most ridiculous lengths to do so. Back in the ol' days, people just let stuff go. I'm not so sure it wasn't better.

Was this really keeping the boy up at night? Was it really that big of a deal?

I work for a fellow that is alright, but once in a while I see he makes a decision I wholeheartedly believe to be foolish. Now, I can advise him to the contrary but if he decides to follow his course, that is the end of it... unless I go over his head. I can do this any time, but common sense says I'd better have a good reason to do so before I do, because I have ruined the working relationship. As you might guess, I pick the battles carefully, and don't sweat the small stuff. It means once in a while I have to live with a situation. It means having input doesn't mean I get my way.

[Voss]

Only four to six percent of the population are atheists. For the sake of six percent of the population we change our laws? Our country is based on tolerance, yet we are caving in to the intolerant? Just once I'd like to see a judge tell one of these litigants to find their own solution. If, they can't accept public education as it is, then they are free to find an alternative.

You don't make the masses conform to the individual.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Voss
Only four to six percent of the population are atheists. For the sake of six percent of the population we change our laws? Our country is based on tolerance, yet we are caving in to the intolerant? Just once I'd like to see a judge tell one of these litigants to find their own solution. If, they can't accept public education as it is, then they are free to find an alternative.

You don't make the masses conform to the individual.

for the last 10 to 20 years the liberals have been trying like hell too ...

and if you don't you are a bigot and/or a racist

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Voss
Only four to six percent of the population are atheists. For the sake of six percent of the population we change our laws?

 The courts cannot change laws - only legislative branch of our government can make laws - by majority vote.
 The courts can repeal illegal unconstitutional laws - even a concent of majority does not give anyone right to break existing laws.

 It is perfectly within your rights to try and make another amendment to the Constitution - repealing the First Amendment and establishing a religious state or whatever majority decides.

 Majority may decide to violate the speed limits while minority may be concerned for their safety and appeal for stronger enforcement. Untill a law is enacted raising the speed limit, the minority is right, not majority.

 miko

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Kieran
Eskimo-

Aren't there enough frivolous lawsuits?

 

Since when has separation of church and state been considered "frivolous"?

Originally posted by Kieran

Was this really keeping the boy up at night? Was it really that big of a deal?

 

If its not a big deal, then it shouldn't be a big deal to change the school code.  It does not matter if most people don't think it's a big deal or not.  The school is forcing religion upon public school students.  This is unconstitutional, and wrong.  The issue is becoming a big deal because BOTH the principal and the student are not willing to back down.  Since the principal is in the wrong for not making a change to the school code when first asked by the student, I think that the principal is the one who's responsible for letting this issue get so big.

A few words may seem minor to you or I, but that does not mean that there is not a wrong that needs to be righted.

Ask yourself, if the school code said "...and I will forever love Allah.", would this bother you?  Would you want it changed?  How would you feel about a child who fought against THIS school code?

eskimo

[fd ski]

So how many people here would have a problem with adding "Heil Hitler" at the end ?

If you don't like it, just don't say it. What would it ever bother anyone ?

[StSanta]

Voss wrote:

Only four to six percent of the population are atheists. For the sake of six percent of the population we change our laws?

Voss, if it was any arbitrary law, perhaps public consensus should be the guiding light.

This, however, is a constitutional matter. Separation of church and state was of great concern for the founding fathers.

If 90% felt it would be OK to remove the right to free speech, it couldn't be done.

In the case of religion in school, it's not a case of changing a law - it's a matter of rectifying an offense - someone have done something unconstitutional, and are now being hold accountable.


Our country is based on tolerance, yet we are caving in to the intolerant? Just once I'd like to see a judge tell  one of these litigants to find their own solution. If, they can't accept public education as it is, then they are free to find an alternative.

Tolerance is NOT showing a religious preference down someones throat. Tolerance is respecting others faith, or lack thereof. The solution is already there - and it's been there since the founding fathers wrote the constitution. It is more modern individuals who've created the problem. And other individuals see the problem and are trying to fix it.

I take it you wouldn't be pleased if the Taliban version of Islam was taught in all public schools, alongside encouragement to experiment with drugs, and instructions in how to have sex orgies. If you have the funds, you can send your child to private school. if you do not, you'll either have to educate it yourself or send him to that public school. I don't this to be a 'love it or leave it' situation, especially as the school IS public.. if it had been a private school, it'd been a different matter.

You don't make the masses conform to the individual.

And you don't let the masses ignore the constitution.


For heaven's sake - watch your government. And protect ALL constitutional matters, even those that you might disagree with, for it is your constitution that laid the foundation for where you are today.

Kieran, around 5% of the world population are atheists. In Denmark, most aren't atheists, but rather totally indifferent to religion - perhaps there is a god, perhaps there isn't, doesn't help me decide what ice cream to buy.

If anything, organised religion is expanding world wide. For some, there's been a shift from the religion of their parents to another one, and it is perhaps this you are referring to.

Or are you talking about less Christian influence in the media?

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Voss
Only four to six percent of the population are atheists. For the sake of six percent of the population we change our laws?

Our laws were written ESPECIALLY to protect "six percent of the population".  A law is not being asked to be changed here.  The student wants a school code to be changed because it defies the law.

Originally posted by Voss

Our country is based on tolerance, yet we are caving in to the intolerant?

I don't see this as "caving in" at all.

Originally posted by Voss

Just once I'd like to see a judge tell one of these litigants to find their own solution.

Move to Sweden and sit in Hortlund's courtroom, you may be pleasantly surprised.

Originally posted by Voss

If, they can't accept public education as it is, then they are free to find an alternative.

No they are not.  Public education is for everyone, and is free so that all may attend.  
If the principal at your kid's public school was making all the kids pray to Allah, should YOU accept it as it is?  After all, you can always find an alternative... right?  Or would you expect your public school to abide by the constitution ?  

Originally posted by Voss

You don't make the masses conform to the individual.

Likewise, you don't make the individual conform to the masses.

eskimo

[midnight Target]

The true measure of a democracy is not how well it serves the majority, it is how well it protects the minority.

[Wlfgng]

there's a huge difference between personal faith/belief and organized religion.

[miko2d]

Originally posted by fd ski
If you don't like it, just don't say it. What would it ever bother anyone ?

 Just like speed limits - let's all teach our children to disrespect the laws and ignore them if they do not like them. Simple solution, can't be detrimental to society - can it?
 
 miko

[Kieran]

Omigosh... comparing "under God" to "heil Hitler"?

Thanks for making my point, ski.



Eskimo-

You say you were a teacher, but you couldn't have been one long. If you had been, you would know there is no way the principal could have changed the pledge. Had he done so, there would have been umpteen phone calls from parents upset about the change, then umpteen calls to the superintendent, then umpteen calls to the school board members. A decision like this gets made in only one place; the school board. That principal may have been left out hanging to dry by his administration, but he certainly didn't have the power to say "yes" or "no" to the boy's request.

You'd be surprised by how many requests a principal gets from individuals to stop serving this type of food, don't let kids this age drive, don't have that book on your shelves... can it be a surprise the principal would deny such requests, at least intitially?

Our principal recently declined a senior's request to receive his diploma while wearing his sailor's uniform (supposedly in support of 9/11). The principal declined, because it would set a precedent he was not willing to follow later, that is, people wearing whatever outfit they desired to the ceremony. As it is a traditional ceremony with a traditional dress, and since there had been no prior discussion (it was two days before the ceremony), the principal decided it was better to say no. What happened? The boy's mother called the news crews, snuck the boy in with his outfit under his gown, then had him rip off the gown when he was seated. The cameras were rolling, just hoping the administration would try to remove the boy. They let it ride. I was thinking to myself, "What happens when that boy disobeys a direct order in the service, and calls news crews to record the results?"

Our principal was put between a rock and a hard place, all because a boy would not respect a decision made in good judgement. The boy used the disagreement to get his 15 minutes of fame. I'm sure in his mind he made some great statement, and that his life means something as a result. In reality all he proved is that, in our society, if one doesn't agree with the decisions of those above us, all we need to do is scream loud enough.

I wouldn't be a principal for a million bucks a year.

[LAGUERRE]

Be in a life or death situation and I promise you even THE TOUGHEST(in their own minds) will cry out to God, now,,,,,,God may be in different flavors for any one person, but to say there is NO God is very foolish. And eskimo public schools are NOT FREE...someone pays for it(tax payers wheather they have children or not), free means without price/value. So now in some schools they teach about same sex marriages, dont celebrate mothers day or fathers day(cause some children dont have both, may have two of the same but not both) . Is this the kind of society that WWI and WWII veterans shed blood for to preserve and defend????????NO this is the society that took advantage of their sacrifice and now will twist the laws to suit themselves. Time will tell...............

[AKSWulfe]

Funny as this may sound- but LaGuerre- "God" wasn't in our Pledge during WWII but after it, and had just arrived on our money during it.
-SW

[Kieran]

The true measure of a democracy is not how well it serves the majority, it is how well it protects the minority.

True, though in ways you can't imagine.

I used to teach elementary. With the advent of wholesale mainstreaming of mentally disadvantaged students into regular ed classrooms teachers were faced with unimagineable problems. The teacher had to prepare the regular ed students for standardized tests (which BTW in large part determine the funding a school receives every year) AND follow the IEP (Individual Educational Plan) of all the special needs students in his or her class. If, as in my case, a teacher had 30 students and five of them are IEP'd, that could require up to five hours a day for those five students. No, I didn't receive any aid, I had to do it alone. The school day is five hours, forty minutes. Guess those other 25 students can make do with what's left, right?

Oops, America is slipping compared to other countries...

...however, that minority is happy as can be. Their children are showing a difference. Is that difference significant enough to be worth dragging down the majority? And before you think I am a heartless bastard, try to imagine your son or daughter as one of the regular ed students. And again, before you think I am a heartless bastard realize I have a mentally retarded brother. I see it on both ends, from all angles, and I think we are screwing up by focusing on the minority(ies). There is too much to do, too much ground to cover, and too little time. It is a brutal truth that we must face.

Ah, I must be a heartless bastard... except you must recognize we had programs before, and that needs were being met. It came down to a vocal minority pushing an agenda through our government while the majority slept... and now I can pretty much assure you the majority's needs are ignored in lieu of the minority's desires...