Author Topic: Another point for the no "God" crowd  (Read 2375 times)

Offline miko2d

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #45 on: July 18, 2002, 12:15:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by LAGUERRE
Is this the kind of society that WWI and WWII veterans shed blood for to preserve and defend???????? NO...............

 YES!
 They shed blood for the society that did not have God on its money and in The Plege - contrary to the Constitution.

 miko

Offline midnight Target

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #46 on: July 18, 2002, 12:17:04 PM »
Dang Kieran,

I bet that darned conservative press had a field day with the "liberal" principal..... no wait, reverse that... no wait. ;)

But seriously. Civil disobedience is OK, as long as you are willing to pay the consequences. That kid should have been made to pay, although I can't figure out how.

I guess that should read "Nonviolent Civil Disobedience".

LAGUERRE:

I was a single Father and the "Mommy and Me" day they used to have at our elementary school on Mothers Day was very upsetting to my daughter. Sure Fathers were invited, but that doesn't make it OK. I was instrumental in changing it to a "Parents Day" and I think for good reasons. PC ain't always a bad thing.

Offline eskimo2

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2002, 12:18:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran

Eskimo-

You say you were a teacher, but you couldn't have been one long. If you had been, you would know there is no way the principal could have changed the pledge.


Could he or she change the school code?  Sure.  Ive been on school committees that have basically done the same thing.  Its really not hard to do.  Could there be backlash against the principal for making such a change?  Sure.  Parents and many people from the community would be upset... so?

Quote
Originally posted by Kieran

You'd be surprised by how many requests a principal gets from individuals to stop serving this type of food, don't let kids this age drive, don't have that book on your shelves... can it be a surprise the principal would deny such requests, at least intitially?


I wouldn't be all that surprised.  I was a public school teacher... remember?  It should have gotten the principal's attention when "separation of church and state" and "constitution" were brought up.  

Quote
Originally posted by Kieran

In reality all he proved is that, in our society, if one doesn't agree with the decisions of those above us, all we need to do is scream loud enough.


I see no correlation between the example of kid wearing the sailor suit, and the topic of this thread.  You may think that these two kids are the same, but I see their thoughts and actions as being very different.

Personally, I see the principal (in Hawaii) as the one who "doesn't agree with the decisions of those above us".... the constitution.

eskimo

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2002, 12:18:08 PM »
Yep AKS you are right, but I dont see how money or the pledge reflects on the soldier at all. Take a look at this and read the last paragraph, it may shed some light.......

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2002, 12:24:41 PM »
Midnight I think you misunderstood.....I am a single father of two girls ages 4 and 6 also and can see where the mothers day can be trying. I said that mothers AND fathers day was NOT celebrated because of homogenious parents. Neither, no parrents day either. This happens in Vermont and othe NE schools.

LAGUERRE

Offline AKSWulfe

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2002, 12:24:57 PM »
Okay, your point is?

AFAIK, there isn't any mention of the word "God" being struck out of anywhere but the Pledge and schools.

Becomming a Godless nation, or is it that when you don't see/hear the word God you THINK it's becomming a Godless nation?

This nation isn't changing for the worse because the word God is being removed from anything... fer chrissakes, it's just a word.

Howsabout this, instead of expecting people to ignore or accept the word God... the people who WANT to pray/talk to "God" can do it on their own free time.

Seems to me that's the simple way of doing it, rather than going "just ignore it, or get the hell out of my country" blah blah blah.
-SW

Offline eskimo2

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2002, 12:28:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran


True, though in ways you can't imagine.

I used to teach elementary. With the advent of wholesale mainstreaming of mentally disadvantaged students into regular ed classrooms teachers were faced with unimagineable problems. The teacher had to prepare the regular ed students for standardized tests (which BTW in large part determine the funding a school receives every year) AND follow the IEP (Individual Educational Plan) of all the special needs students in his or her class. If, as in my case, a teacher had 30 students and five of them are IEP'd, that could require up to five hours a day for those five students. No, I didn't receive any aid, I had to do it alone. The school day is five hours, forty minutes. Guess those other 25 students can make do with what's left, right?

Oops, America is slipping compared to other countries...

...however, that minority is happy as can be. Their children are showing a difference. Is that difference significant enough to be worth dragging down the majority? And before you think I am a heartless bastard, try to imagine your son or daughter as one of the regular ed students. And again, before you think I am a heartless bastard realize I have a mentally retarded brother. I see it on both ends, from all angles, and I think we are screwing up by focusing on the minority(ies). There is too much to do, too much ground to cover, and too little time. It is a brutal truth that we must face.

Ah, I must be a heartless bastard... except you must recognize we had programs before, and that needs were being met. It came down to a vocal minority pushing an agenda through our government while the majority slept... and now I can pretty much assure you the majority's needs are ignored in lieu of the minority's desires...


I feel for you.  What you are saying contributed to why I quit education.  I don't think this is comparable to the topic of this thread, however.  How is changing the school code going to hurt any child's education or create more work for teachers?

eskimo

Offline Kieran

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2002, 12:31:26 PM »
Can't help you, Eskimo, if you don't see a connection. There is a little truth and a little out of context in any situation you care to discuss where schools are concerned.

Sure, there is separation of church and state. Sure, there is a bureaucracy that has to be navigated to make any such change in school. You choose to pick the former and overlook the latter. You also fail to recognize the impact such precedents have upon the daily operation of schools. You choose to focus tightly on the issue ignoring the repercussions. It isn't just about whether the rule gets changed sometimes; it also has to with HOW the rule gets changed.

I cannot say this school handled this correctly or not, I wasn't there. I can imagine the situation they were in, because my sailor example is indeed very similar. You have a person that wants a change NOW, and will not accept the process needed to make that change. Right or wrong still matters, don't read that wrong, but there has to be structure to change, or it can be made for transient causes (such as this one). Change in our schools, like our government, should be considered for the impact it will have.

Ah, but there I go, being senseless again...

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2002, 12:46:09 PM »
AKS: My point exactly it's just a word(to some)and if you dont believe just dont say it. Obviously people who have made the supreme sacrafice to allow you to say "MY COUNTRY" had a different view of things.

LAGUERRE
« Last Edit: July 18, 2002, 12:48:19 PM by LAGUERRE »

Offline midnight Target

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2002, 12:51:26 PM »
Kieran,

I taught Special Ed. for 5 years here in California, and it may surprise you that I agree with everything you said. Mainstreaming was and has been way overdone. I'm pretty sure California provides Aides for mainstreamed Developmentally Disabled students though. Mainstreaming was an extension of Reagan's dumping of the State Hospital System.

Offline Kieran

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2002, 12:58:23 PM »
Yes, it's true I have religious leanings; that I have to accept when I enter such discussions. I have to recognize religion must be separated from school, and if the pledge must be changed, so be it. However, I stand my ground where the process is concerned. You can never make the public 100% happy where schools are concerned, so you'd best be very sure of your decision before you make it final. Schools not only reflect the law, but the desires of the constituency they serve. Having "God" stricken from the pledge is going to be a lot harder to achieve where I live than it was in California- not because of the school, but because of the community.

Offline AKSWulfe

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #56 on: July 18, 2002, 12:59:17 PM »
Who is saying "MY COUNTRY" that "made the sacrifice to be able to say it"?

Seems to me it's less war vets saying, "If you don't like it, get out of my country".. are more just average joe blow citizens.

War vets know they didn't fight for the word God, they fought for our way of life- freedom.

So let me get this straight, if I get a chance to serve in a big war (as in, not these 3 month campaigns, but something that lasts a little longer than that).. then I have more of a right to say this is my country than someone who doesn't?

Not every soldier is religious... does this mean they still fought for the word "God" to be shoved down people's throats?
-SW

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2002, 12:59:31 PM »
Seems like alot of PATRIOTS had God on their mind.......Does this look familliar????????




O say, can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hail'd at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, thro' the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watch'd, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof thro' the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?


On the shore dimly seen thro' the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected, now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner: O, long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion,
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash'd out their foul footsteps' pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.


O thus be it ever when free-men shall stand
Between their lov'd home and the war's desolation;
Blest with vict'ry and peace, may the heav'n-rescued land
Praise the Pow'r that hath made and preserv'd us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: “In God is our trust!”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!
“In God is our trust!”



LAGUERRE

Offline AKSWulfe

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2002, 01:08:39 PM »
The Star Spangled Banner has WHAT to do with proving anything?
-SW

Offline LAGUERRE

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Another point for the no "God" crowd
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2002, 01:09:10 PM »
No AKS being a veteran of a war gives no special right, if it did then I would envoke them as a veteran of the Gulf War spending more then 3 or four months in theater. And who is this that is saying get the hell outta the country????????? And contrary to what you stated veterans didnt fight for "the word of God" but the ability(FREEDOM) to say it if you so wanted, and if you didnt want to so be that also....And in flying medevac for all of my career in the army I can say that YES maybe not all soldiers are religious but from the ones that I had dealings with there were sure alot of converts enroute.......Just my experience.......


LAGUERRE