Author Topic: The Real Eve  (Read 3035 times)

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #195 on: August 27, 2002, 07:25:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund3

 The probability of producing one human cell by chance is 10, to the 119,000 power.


Now divide that number by the total number of worlds.

Also take into account that it doesn't have to be a human cell, it just happened to be one cause we're all human and talking about it.

This guy was obviously from earth doing human math and God hates him.
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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #196 on: August 27, 2002, 07:58:05 PM »
Calculating the chances of the evolution of a T4 bacteriophage virus.

"We can even handicap ourselves with a rate of additive mutation of once per 200 quadrillion reproductions. Even then we will still see one such mutation per two million generations, for a rate of one relevant mutation every 548 years. Of these, as we have already noted, bad mutations will vanish with no effect, but useful ones will persist, and will rapidly acquire the same population statistics. Indeed, a single T4 mutant, with the given estimates, will reach the trillion population mark in less than two days -- this is perhaps why evolution sometimes appears punctuated, for it can take centuries or even millennia for an advantage to be gained through new mutations, but once gained it can be exploited even to the point of total dominance in a matter of days or years in single-celled populations, a mere instant of geological time.

At any rate, given the above guesses, what are the odds of the T4 genome arising through natural selection within one billion years?

n = 1,824,818 (number of mutant proto-T4's)
p = .05 (the chance of a beneficial proto-T4 mutation)
q = 1 - p = .95
m = n*p = 91,241
s = (n*p*q)^0.5 = 294.4

Now, if x = 61,538 (the total number of correct mutations needed), then z = (x-m)/s = -100.9. In other words, the evolution of the T4 bacteriophage is essentially guaranteed to occur in less than a billion years, provided all the conditions are right, and the rates of reproduction and mutation are as estimated above. However, if the math is done, and our estimations are correct, it can be shown that the evolution of an organism like the T4 must take more than 500 million years, since the odds within that period of time are close enough to zero for the event to be regarded as virtually impossible. In fact, the odds start to drop below 50% when the time falls under 675 million years. Of course, all of that changes if we become more realistic, and credit the T4 ancestors with populations in the thousands of trillions, generations by the hour or even the minute, and relevant mutations at a rate of one every several trillions of replications."



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Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2002, 09:23:36 PM »
Thrawn- the universe is not finite. If you stumble across a satelite (hmmm Hubble is about the best you can do, and it still can't see very far) that can view the edge of space... lemme know.

Elfenwolf- true. I'm not necessarily talking about you, though.

Kieren- Explain to me what a new life is then. Because I guess I don't quite understand... I mean, all this time I thought that a new life didn't necessarily have to be different than the parent. I mean, are various forms of asexual creatures on this planet not creating a new life everytime they divide?

Of course they are! This is an extension of that, you take a stem cell from a sheep. You take the cell matter, and create a new life.
It is an entirely different being, physically and mentally. If they just grew a new kidney, okay, that ain't a new life.... but a whole new sheep, well...

Hortlund- "According to probability-science"

Oh, there's your problem. The probability of an asteroid hitting this planet is very low. If one coming towards us, hits us tommorrow.. the probability shoots through the roof.

Did you even read the rest of what I wrote? You seemed to have ignored this: "So that means that no matter how many times you crunch those numbers, the universe is infinite. This in turns mean the possibilities of how life got here, and for how long it evolved further out in the universe, could potentially be infinite."

Just what makes you think life had to create itself here? If a one celled organism, or bacteria were to land here on an asteroid, it would reproduce itself.... Conversion of basic compounds in the atmosphere, water, etc would eventually lead to an atmosphere. This in turn would allow for.... well, where we're at today.

Problem with probability is that it'll probably happen until it happens, then it definitely happened.
-SW

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2002, 09:40:50 PM »
"(hmmm Hubble is about the best you can do, and it still can't see very far) that can view the edge of space... lemme know."

Could the Europeans see the Americas before they were discovered?  I guess they don't exist then.

I bet the mouse that is running around in a plastic ball thinks the ball is infinate as well.


The universe could have only expanded by the speed of light.  Speed of light x age of the universe gets you it's size.

There is was also a finite amount of matter and energy created during the big bang.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2002, 09:53:02 PM by Thrawn »

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2002, 09:57:29 PM »
Explain Soylent Green then!

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #200 on: August 27, 2002, 10:06:21 PM »
Cobra, Solyent Green is PEOPLE!!

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #201 on: August 27, 2002, 10:09:41 PM »
Yeah, I forgot. We can't get past our own moon, yet we can measure the size of something we don't know the limits too..

It's all based around guesstimation Thrawn.

Science, as it is right now, isn't the end all be all of explanations. What it can explain, however, prevents me from believing in a divine creator.
-SW

Offline Cobra

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« Reply #202 on: August 27, 2002, 10:13:55 PM »
Damn Dirty Apes!

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #203 on: August 27, 2002, 10:18:52 PM »
Paging P. W. Herman...paging P.W. Herman...

Offline Hortlund3

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« Reply #204 on: August 28, 2002, 02:34:05 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
Calculating the chances of the evolution of a T4 bacteriophage virus.


Intriguing...so this guy did some calculations of a virus (not "life").

Dr Coppedge did some calculations on the most basic cell of them all (life).  

But there are more flaws to the primordial soup theory.

Consider this dilemma:
For the natural origin of life, ultraviolet rays would have been needed to form amino acids, but ultraviolet rays would destroy the very life which is supposed to be formed!  These rays would have reached the surface of the earth in great numbers through the primitive atmosphere which was assumed to contain no oxygen and therefore no ozone shield.  The ozone shield in the upper atmosphere now screens out most of these dangerous rays.  It was supposed to have been formed from oxygen mainly produced by photosynthesis in plants and algae over an immense span of time.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #205 on: August 28, 2002, 03:01:23 AM »
Quote
base bacteria that is infamous for its health hazards--E. coli.


which of the 1000 subtype ?

this comment is idiotic.

Offline straffo

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« Reply #206 on: August 28, 2002, 03:07:17 AM »
Quote
Consider this dilemma:
For the natural origin of life, ultraviolet rays would have been needed to form amino acids, but ultraviolet rays would destroy the very life which is supposed to be formed! These rays would have reached the surface of the earth in great numbers through the primitive atmosphere which was assumed to contain no oxygen and therefore no ozone shield. The ozone shield in the upper atmosphere now screens out most of these dangerous rays. It was supposed to have been formed from oxygen mainly produced by photosynthesis in plants and algae over an immense span of time.


How can you disprove something with another hypothese ?
Sorry :)
You need more than that  ;)

Offline straffo

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« Reply #207 on: August 28, 2002, 03:11:40 AM »
As said by Claude Bernard :

Offline wsnpr

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« Reply #208 on: August 28, 2002, 03:55:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Thrawn
For the bbs crowd...answer me this:

DO WE HAVE TO REHASH THIS AGAIN?


ROFL!!!!

Offline wsnpr

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« Reply #209 on: August 28, 2002, 04:30:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund3


Intriguing...so this guy did some calculations of a virus (not "life").

Dr Coppedge did some calculations on the most basic cell of them all (life).  

But there are more flaws to the primordial soup theory.

Consider this dilemma:
For the natural origin of life, ultraviolet rays would have been needed to form amino acids, but ultraviolet rays would destroy the very life which is supposed to be formed!  These rays would have reached the surface of the earth in great numbers through the primitive atmosphere which was assumed to contain no oxygen and therefore no ozone shield.  The ozone shield in the upper atmosphere now screens out most of these dangerous rays.  It was supposed to have been formed from oxygen mainly produced by photosynthesis in plants and algae over an immense span of time.


I didn't read that book Steve. But isn't it possible that the beginning life forms could have been shielded not from an atmosphere of ozone, but from other now dead or dying life forms? That perhaps that life evolved from that? Just random chance that some happened to stay in a favorable position between layers to stay alive and continue the evolution process?
Also what role does heat play in the calculations? Could it be that energy accelerated the process? Just asking.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2002, 04:59:33 AM by wsnpr »