Is it time to revise some aspects of scoring?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by CUCKOO
Bad guess! Widewing
I flied in Lancaster and C47 as bomber, not iL2.
I fly in iL2 as attacker.
You need to understand the AH soring system more, I think.
Even if you fly in goon with only one sortie, you can capture many enemy bases.
Even if you drop eggs on enmy fields, your hit percentage can be over 400%.
If you drop egg on high densed target ( factories or town), your hit percentage can be 1,200% at maximum.
In my opinion, bomers jobs are to destroy enmy object, not to kill enmy fighters.
Field captures are very important job for your country.
We can not win without field captures.
If you enjoy in AH for only your self-satisfaction, its OK, its not my business.
However, you should not complain of the scoring system without understanding this system.
If you are interest with scoring, do your best for score and show your best result.
Do your best before criticizing the scoring sytem or the other players' score, even if hte scoring system is not perfect.
If you are not interested with scoring, don't complain to other gents about their scores.
In tour 31, I did my best to get good score and to work for rookland.
The score don't show that I do good flight. (almost players know it)
Many many friends always help me and many many friends cheered me.
I could not get rank #1 without many friends help and support.
Thank you very much all gents.
Almost players know that real aces are Fester, Hermit, Lazer, Blade, Fariz, Dmdcoach, SirLoin Trikky SUPONGO, Concho, Hitech ....... and many many great fighters are in AH, not me.
Just only I like the number 1, the 1 1 1 1 is Jackpot.
If the score is slot machine, I will get much dollars.
 
CUCKOO

Hmm... That's an awful lot of rationalization just to avoid admitting to “gaming the game”.

As to flying the IL-2 as an attacker, you better check your stats again. You have 4 bomber deaths, 3 with C-47. There are no other bomber deaths listed, other than the IL-2. So, where’s the 4th one?

Since we have gone this far, lets discuss your fighter score as well. What percentage of your kills did not come from vulching? Professional vulchers often have two main rides, N1K2 and the C-Hog. Why? Because they pack four cannon and a huge ammo load. Add to that the 110G-2, Hurricane and Typhoon. Guess what? 707 of your 809 kills in fighters are in those aircraft.

Tell ya what, fly a tour using the C.202, 109F-4, Yak, P-51B or FM-2, generate the same numbers and that'll be impressive. Don't fly Lancs, fly the D3A or SBD with limited bomb loads. Try something difficult. Avoid the path of least resistance, so to speak.

Now, if that’s the way you wish to play, manipulating the score, be my guest. At least, we now know how you got a portion of your outstanding ranking in tour 31.

If anyone ever wondered why so many people ignore scores, this is a prime example of their reasoning. Being able to manipulate the score does not encourage players to strive for score. Set up seperate categories for light and heavy bombers as well as field captures. Credit only partial kills for vulches and let's reduce the manipulation of scoring as well as providing players with an accurate look at how they are doing.

My regards,

Widewing

[Gixer]

Is there another side to this record?



...Gixer
The Horse Soldiers

[hitech]

Widewing, in you view, exactly how should someone fly to get a good score ?

It apears to me cuckoo did a lot of different things, most of which helped his country.

[ygsmilo]

Widewing,,,,

either you need to pay for Cuckoo to play or you need to shut up and let him play the way HE wants to.

It is ok to comment about the game play as you see it, but don't make statements about the way other people play.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by hitech
Widewing, in you view, exactly how should someone fly to get a good score ?

It apears to me cuckoo did a lot of different things, most of which helped his country.

Well, first off, it's not my intention to pick specifically on Cuckoo. His score just happens to be the most prominent to use as an example. Regardless of how anyone gets over 1,000 kills, it is certainly a major contribution to his country, and I 'm not arguing otherwise.

I made a point of watching those high ranking players online  when I'm flying. My purpose was to learn their secrets, and apply them. However, I came away somewhat dismayed when I watched them milkrunning and vulching their way to the top. I expected to find highly skilled pilots. What I discovered where methods to run up the score without taking much risk. Bombing isolated factory and city complexes (I tried it, and it sure bumps up one's score) and specifically looking for good vulching opportunities is low risk, high reward gaming. But, it's gaming pure and simple. I don't see a solution to milkrunning, but only giving half credit for vulch kills will encourage players to get their kills against enemies who can defend themselves to some degree (perhaps define a vulch as a kill of an aircraft within 100 ft of the ground, with gear lowered).

What I would like to see is greater emphasis placed upon surviving a sortie (when kills are gained).

In WWII the single greatest goal was to get planes, pilots and crews back alive. Everything else was secondary. Hitting the target was of limited value when most of your planes and aircrews failed to return. Who would fly the next mission, and what would they fly it in? Seriously, 5% loss rates where deemed unsustainable. In Aces High, there is no attrition, and the scoring does not sufficiently discourage getting shot down.

If kills are not scored until the pilot lands or successfully ditches his aircraft, players will think twice about their actions. As it stands now, you still get credit for kills even if you get killed yourself. K/D should have a greater influence than K/S and K/T.
For the record, all three of my scores in those categories are pretty good, so I'm not defending those who avoid fights.

My idea of how the system should work (for what that's worth), is the best scorers should also be among the best survivors. If you get killed, it should have a greater effect than how fast you killed the enemy, or how many you lumped into a sortie (which can be endlessly manipulated by hitting the rearm pad time and time again). Maybe there should be some value applied to scoring kill strings (consecutive kills without a loss).

Back to field captures. If this was a seperate scoring category, it  may change a player's overall rank. It would also change the relative bombing rank of those who actually fly bombers on a regular basis, and force people to fly bombers to get their overall rating up. Likewise, it would force all others to particpate in field captures to improve their overall score.

So,

Limit the profitablity of being a professional vulcher.
Isolate field captures from bomber scores (if it doesn't have a bombsight, it should be classified as Attack).
Emphasize survival as a significant scoring factor (which might reduce the rash of recent suicide behavior).
Finally, factor in ENY into fighter scoring, rewarding the people who succeed in lower performance aircraft (this may somewhat reduce the hordes of La-7s, P-51s, N1K2s and so on).

The current system does not necessarily reward the most skilled pilots, but it does tend to reward the most skilled "gamers".

My regards,

Widewing

[CUCKOO]

ggaming the gameh.
Sorry, i can not understand this, because I'm not good at English.
You mean that I am gamer?
I can fly in only game, because I don't have flight license and have not operated a real airplane in real world.

As to flying the IL-2 as an attacker, you better check your stats again. You have 4 bomber deaths, 3 with C-47. There are no other bomber deaths listed, other than the IL-2. So, wherefs the 4th one?
You don't really understand the kill stat.
I don't intend to answer this question, because you don't make an effort to understand the kill stat by yourself.
The counts of death in ... = The counts of killed by .....
You always need to check your stat flight by flight.
Crashing to tree or object, the kill stat show what kind of aircraft kill you?
While you write in BBS, some modest gentlemen are researching on the scoring sytem, learning flight tecnique, working for their country, enjoying in main arena together with their friends, or busy in their real world.
Plese check the scoring system or the kill stat by yourself.

Fighter score
You did bad guess again.
I don't hesitate vulching, because the enemies chose to roll from vulched base though they have the other bases to roll.
Certainly I got many kills with vulching in NIK.
But almost kills in NIK are counted into attackers.
I got some victories as fighters with vulching certainly, though vulching are not always good for fighter score. Because enemy bases are farther than furball.
I know the best place for fighter score.
You need to look for the place by yourself.

Why? Because they pack four cannon and a huge ammo load. Add to that the 110G-2, Hurricane and Typhoon. Guess what? 707 of your 809 kills in fighters are in those aircraft. fly a tour using the C.202, 109F-4, Yak, P-51B or FM-2, generate the same numbers and that'll be impressive.
You don't understand me.
When I was newbie before you enter into AH, many many great friend tell me how to fly in G6, G10, D9, F6F and many planes, and tried to fly in my favorite G10 yak-U and ........
I like NIK spit ZERO cat G10 spit and many many planes too.
When I felt spits are most comfortable, i stopped flying in spits though I like spits too.
Whatever you fly in, its OK, it's not my buisiness.
Whatever I fly in, it's not your buisiness.
We have many choices of aircrafts.
You enjoy in SBD or FM2, its no problem, its good, I think.
But rooks fleet sunk many times, while you satisfied yourself in SBD without destroying Shore Battery with your keeping fleet command for long hours. It's not good, I think.
While you enjoyed killing enmy planes in ship gunner without your death, some gentlemen were attacking enmy bases or bring
goon for rookland and their pleasure with their death.
I tried to destroy quickly town, VH, acks and so on. Many friends supported my jobs. Its my pleasure.

At least, we now know how you got a portion of your outstanding ranking in tour 31.
Ohhhhhhh its good.
If you know it really, practise it by yourself and show how easily you get #1 by yourself.
I will not try to get #1 in tour 32, #1 is your turn.
It isn't as easy in practise as in theory.
My comments are followings;
1, Understand AH scoring system moe accurately.
2. Check all situation in main arena by yourself, not guess.
3, Don't forget that many many really good enemy fighters waiting for you to kill you in main arena.
4, Don't forget that many many good friendly fighters sometimes ( not always) try to support you, if you help them.

I hope that you don't complain about AH scoring system untill you understand hte system accurately.
I'm believing that AH staffs try to make system better with their efforts to accept some player's good comments in BBS.
Truly AH staffs made the scoring system better than that in tour 10 or 20.
AH staffs

You need to try and error in scoring system by your self before you answer somebodies it.
This message is last for you. Sorry not to reply in your next question.

CUCKOO CUCKOO CUCKOO

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Widewing
What I would like to see is greater emphasis placed upon surviving a sortie (when kills are gained).

In WWII the single greatest goal was to get planes, pilots and crews back alive. Everything else was secondary. Hitting the target was of limited value when most of your planes and aircrews failed to return. Who would fly the next mission, and what would they fly it in? Seriously, 5% loss rates where deemed unsustainable. In Aces High, there is no attrition, and the scoring does not sufficiently discourage getting shot down.

I disagree vehemently with this suggestion.  Any changes to gameplay that increase the emphasis on survival will result in a disproportionate increase in the number of players who engage in the sorts of low risk, high rewards gaming that you claim to dislike.  Think about it, and let's use CUCKOO (not to pick on him necessarily, but he's topical) as an example.  He landed well over 50% of his fighter sorties last tour and possessed the 11th highest K/D ratio in game.  According to stats, he's exactly the kind of player you'd like to see in this game, and he's the kind of player who would benefit the most from a system that rewards flying to live more than anything else.

The problem with equating AH to historical reality is that in AH there is no punishment for unrealistic behavior in the pursuit of flying to live.  Last night I ran into a couple of guys who were doing what I call "chumming."  This involves using countrymates as bait and refusing to assist them until it's certain that the enemy fighting them has become preoccupied.  The typical result of chumming is that the chummed countrymates die, but in so doing put the chummer at an extremely advantageous position relative to the enemy.

It's a great way to live and obtain kills, but realistic?  Hardly.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[CUCKOO]

Sorry many spell miss and mistake the last comment.
I will correst it.

You need to try and error in scoring system by your self before you answer somebodies it.
change to
You need to try and error in scoring system by your self before you ask a question of it to somebodies.

And thank you very much for some comments, Hitech.

I have one comment, just only comment.
In my opinion, we can see few high bombers but many great players keep cap high with their pride and pleasure, even if high cap is not good for scoring.
I sometimes try to cap high as attacker because K/online time in attacker is not so important as that in fighter.

all pilots

[hitech]

In WWII the single greatest goal was to get planes, pilots and crews back alive. Everything else was secondary. Hitting the target was of limited value when most of your planes and aircrews failed to return. Who would fly the next mission, and what would they fly it in? Seriously, 5% loss rates where deemed unsustainable. In Aces High, there is no attrition, and the scoring does not sufficiently discourage getting shot down.

Anyone else think this statment if full if it? If the greatest goal was to keep poeple alive then why would a comander ever send them out?

Acctual the things you squeak about most, like milk running are the most realistic. The hole goal of battle is to hit them where they ain't while accompishing the objective.

The scoring system is designed around lots of skills, you need to do all the skills to do well at it.

Your doing a classic view of game play wideman, that beeing not thinking how score changes effect everone. We already do a lot to promote landing. See the points catagory. But when you go to far by making k/d more important than k/s k/t what you do is make a game where people run more than fight. And that makes for a very boring game.

In the end Widewing you are trying to change the score system not to what is best for fun and game play , but wrather to what best suites you. i.e. wanting to live.

Over the last 7 years, we have tried many scoring systems, so far this one has won out, it is very fare in that all catagories are equal and it's well rounded to all types of pilots.

[A4c7i9d]

I still say that the best option would be to remove the scoring system and let word of mouth dictate players' standing within the game.  The way I see it, people would pay more attention to being team players if the the score system was removed.  But I guess scoring does help, in a way, by adding some sort of "death penalty".  Some people like scores and some people don't... I'm one that doesn't.  Have any online air combats sims tried no scoring before?

As far as CV control goes.  Give each player a menu or something so they can give their "approval" to as many players as they want.  If a player has X number of other players that approve of them having CV control then they can control it.  Maybe even go so far as to allow a player with a higher approval rating to relieve another of command.  That way those people who constantly get CVs destroyed don't get the chance to command them.

[Innominate]

So HT, When are we going to get a perk-ratio stat, to give people who are successfull in early war planes a stat that points that out over players who are equally successfull in the 1944 monsters?

[J_A_B]

I completely agree with HiTech

Anyone who reads my posts, especially on that "other" newsgroup (the NNTP one) knows that's not a common occurance


J_A_B

[wulfie]

Combat aircrew put the mission first in real life in my experience (note: I'm not a pilot, but I've worked very closely with combat aircrew for no small number of years - maybe some of our combat aircrew can comment on this to give a better perspective).

Widewing, you have a point that attrition rates in the MA are insanely high with regards to real life. But HT is correct that the primary goal was to meet mission objectives. 'Perfectly' planned missions put the enemy at as much risk as possible while putting your own assets at as little risk as possible while still putting them in a position to complete their mission. If the mission plan goes bad and the risk factor goes up for the good guys it's still pretty rare to scrub the mission altogether.

WW2 air combat history is loaded with examples of experienced aircrew who committed to action when high casualties were almost a certainty, because planning went wrong but they 'still had a mission to accomplish'.

Torpedo Squadron 8 could have called off the attack and returned to their CV when their fighter cover did not materialize. But they knew other attacking aircraft were on the way and they had the holy grail of targets for USN attack pilots in 1942: IJN CVs.

So they were shot down to the man, with 1 survivor from the whole squadron. Not a smart move if your 'primary objective' is to get home safe. But those guys single handedly changed the course of the entire war in the Pacific. The IJN CAP overcommited when attacking them (not bad judgement really - if there are torpedo bombers attacking your CVs, you don't spare on effort to kill them all before they get into effective attack range), leaving only 1 fighter 'high'...and when the 2 groups of USN dive bombers appeared there was zero aerial opposition and the defensive DD based AAA screens for the CVs were totally disrupted due to torpedo evasion maneuvers. Everyone knows the end result.

Widewing - the mindset you are looking for exists in about 10% or fewer of the players in the MA (look for the challenging fight and try to win even if the odds are against you - as opposed to fleeing for friendly AAA at the first sign of danger), but that doens't make the other 90% of the players in the MA 'wrong'.

I *think* the whole point of the MA is 'anything goes', but there's a big strategic chess game going on the background that is played out with aircraft and vehicles and such. The balance that is trying to be struck is to allow the 'big chess game' to be played by people who want to play it while making sure that the 'anything goes' crowd (which includes me an probably everyone else, depending on a person's mood on a given night) can do what they want at the same time without limitation.

What you are looking for exists in historical events, and will probably exist in the mission-based arena.

In the MA there's 80+ different categories of players all focusing on doing their own thing. You are never going to have a scoring system in the MA that 'means something' to every category of player I think.

Mike/wulfie

[BigGun]

Well said HiTech.....

And what is wrong with vulching? Why penalize someone for putting on a good vulch? Sometimes it is necessary to capture the field, besides it is fun to see them planes blow up.

The only way someone can Vulch is if there is someone else willing to up from a capped base. If someone doesn't like getting vulched, then look out the tower first before upping.

[thrila]

AFAIK ENY is included in your fighter rank.
Look at your stats and see how many fighter points you have.  If you fly a low ENY plane you will have fewer points than someone who flies a high ENY plane.


I have 17 kills and have 1720.3754 points- flying the spit9

Widewing has 14 kills and has 4099.3656 points- flying mainly the FM2

Cuckoo has 10 kills and has 2651.2645- flying either the hurri2c or tiffie.  

 
I have more kills than both of them but have less points because i fly the spitfire with it's extremely low ENY.  Cuckoo has more kills than Widewing but has less points because the FM2 has a higher ENY.  Widewing has the most points because the FM2 is poop;)  


Soooo..... flying high ENY planes does have a positive effect on your fighter rankings.