Uranium wasn't Uranium.

[Kanth]

Bush owns a cat?

Originally posted by Boroda

Frankly speaking I still don't understand what the f#$k does comrade Bush want from Iraq. Looks like when the cat has nothing to do it licks his balls.

[john9001]

i thought bush was more of a dog person

[Toad]

Dowding:I still remember an A-10 pilot being interviewed at the time, joyfully describing Basra as a 'Turkey Shoot'. I swear he was talking with a smile on his face. He was positively triumphant, like he'd achieved a great victory. I thought he was the biggest salamander to grace the airwaves (after David Mellor).

Let's see... you think he's the "biggest salamander to ever grace the airwaves" because he was smiling and triumphant and acting like he achieved a great victory.

Well, he WAS triumphant and he did achieve a "great victory" in executing his mission. I'd have been smiling too, I think.

They sent the A-10's out to hunt Iraqi vehicles. The A-10's found them, they stalled the head and tail of the column as perfectly as it could be done in accordance with the doctrine and then they systematically destroyed the enemy vehicles with an incredible level of accuracy and without loss to themselves.

Damn straight he was proud, triumphant and smiling. He did his job. Extremely well. Without friendly loss.

From my point of view, he's an exemplary attack pilot.

I think how you feel about him says more about you than it does about him.

[Toad]

the use of depleted uranium in the Gulf War.

" Nevertheless, these conclusions regarding depleted uranium seem reasonable:

Although the use of DU munitions has been controversial since the end of the Gulf War, the radiological effects from exposures to depleted uranium are almost surely minor—certainly too small to be detectable.

Given that, radiation from depleted uranium is highly unlikely to have been responsible in any way for either the "Gulf War Syndrome" among veterans or for any of the variety of illnesses observed in the Iraqi population since the war.[/b]

Some soldiers in armored vehicles hit by DU munitions, their rescuers, and individuals who spent prolonged periods of time in the vehicles as part of cleanup details (and who were not wearing adequate respiratory protection), may have inhaled enough DU dust to suffer heavy-metal effects. "


*********

"Educational Foundation for Nuclear Science


The Educational Foundation for Nuclear Science (EFNS), incorporated as a not-for-profit 501(c)(3) organization in 1949, publishes the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists and manages other related programs from its office in Chicago.....

.....• EFNS provides non-technical, scientifically sound, policy-relevant information about nuclear weapons and other global security issues to the general public, policy makers, scientists, and journalists.

• EFNS serves as a reliable, high-quality global forum for diverse international opinions on the best means of reducing reliance on nuclear weapons as guarantors of security and as symbols of political status.

• EFNS reminds the world of the continuing danger posed by nuclear weapons—and the military, political, economic, and social conditions that contribute to armed conflict—by maintaining and publicizing the symbolic minutes-to-midnight "Doomsday Clock." "



These guys are pretty a-political. If anything, they'd probably be considered to be "liberals".

So, given THEIR science, what do you have to counter it other than newsreporters giving their opinion? I'm always willing to be edu-ma-cated.

Is the DU a real threat or not?

[Toad]

These two-page threads! Can't skip a thing.

Here ya go:

CNN Gulf War Facts

"Iraq

In June 1991, the U.S. estimated that more than 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died, 300,000 were wounded, 150,000 deserted and 60,000 were taken prisoner. Many human rights groups claimed a much higher number of Iraqis were killed in action.

According to Baghdad, civilian casualties numbered more than 35,000. However, since the war, some scholars have concluded that the number of Iraqi soldiers who were killed was significantly less than initially reported."

35,000 from BAGHDAD[/u], Boroda. The Iraqis themselves.

****



Then there's this summation from different sources:

Compiled sources

Gulf War (1990-91)

Shortly after the war, the US Defense Intelligence Agency made a very rough estimate of 100,000 Iraqi deaths, and this order of magnitude is widely accepted -- even improved upon:

B&J: 50,000 to 100,000

Compton's: 150,000 Iraqi soldiers killed

World Political Almanac 3rd: 150,000 incl. civilians.

Our Times: 200,000.

Other authoritative sources working with more detailed data have come up with lower numbers.

The British govt. put the death toll at 30,000 (War Annual 6, 1994)

A May 1992 report by the US House Armed Services Committee estimated that 9,000 Iraqis were killed by the air campaign.

The PBS news show Frontline estimates 2300 civilians , 10-20,000 military in air war and, 10,000 military in the ground war; for a total of 27,300 ±5000. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/gulf/appendix/death.html)

Because the advancing American Army found only 577 dead bodies and captured only 800 wounded/sick prisoners (compared to 37,000 healthy prisoners),  John Heidenrich (Foreign Policy, 22 March 1993) plausibly estimates the number of Iraqi military killed at 1,500 (probable) to 9,500 (absolute maximum), with  fewer than 1000 civilians .

29 April 1999  AP : 4,500 to 45,000

 Civilian death toll is put at 2,500 by US and 35,000 by Iraqis

The US lost 147 killed in battle and 289 dead otherwise. The other Coalition members lost 92 dead.

NOTE: Subtracting the civilian estimates from the estimated total indicates that AP puts the military deaths in roughly the same range as Heidenreich: 2,000 to 10,000

Dict.Wars: 85,000 Iraqi and 240 Coalition soldiers.

 Wm Arkin: 3,200 Iraqi civilians (cited in 4 Dec. 2001 WSJ [http://wsjclassroomedition.com/tj_120401_casu.htm] and 13 Jan. 2002 San Francisco Chronicle)

 Martin Gilbert :
Coalition
USA: 145 k. in action and 121 k. in accidents.
UK: 24
Egypt: 10
UAE: 6
Iraqis: at least 8,000 in battle,  and 5,000 civilians

25 July 1991  The Gazette (Montreal), citing a Greenpeace report by Wm Arkin :

Iraqi
Military: 100,000-120,000
 Civilian: 62,400 to 99,400 (87% of dis./mal. after fighting stopped) (That's DISEASE and MALNUTRITION  AFTER the war was OVER.

 Post-war revolts in N + S Iraq: 30,000-100,000

Kuwaitis: 2,000-5,000

Coalition
US: 145 KIA + 2 mortally wd. + 121 in accidents = 268

Allies: 77

TOTAL: 345

8 Jan. 1992  Interpress, citing a later Greenpeace report by Arkin:

Iraqis
Military: 72,500-118,000
 Civilian: 2,500-3,000 in bombing + 49,000-56,000 from dis./mal in 1990-91 (Again, AFTER the war was over)

 Post-war revolts in N + S Iraq: 102,000-150,000 civilians & rebels + 5,000 Iraqi soldiers

11 Nov. 2000 Times [London]: 47 British soldiers
Kuwaiti civilians

24 Feb. 1991  St. Petersburg Times: acc2 Pentagon, 2,000-10,000 killed by Iraqis "in recent days"

7 March 1996, Guardian [London]: 600 missing since Iraqi occupation.

MEDIAN
Civilians
Iraqi : 2,750[/color]
Kuwaitis: 4,750
Total: 7,500
TOTAL: 75,000-85,000


Now, where else but in your "Soviet TV" reference do you see 150,000 civilians killed during the war.

Oh, BTW... check the numbers for those killed AFTER the war during revolts. Things that make you go hmmmmmmmmmm

Looks like the Coalition Forces in the Gulf War couldn't come close to killing the number of Iraqi civilians that the Iraqi leader managed quite easily.

And if I remember our first discussion correctly, I gave you several more diverse sources that put the total at or below ~35,000 while you were unable to come up with anything other than Soviet TV for your source.

[Dowding (Work)]

All I can say, Toad, is that you didn't hear his comments. It wasn't 'pleased with a job well done' - it was far from that. It wasn't how I've heard servicemen describe successful missions before. I know I wasn't the only one disgusted with his tone; of all the interviews, press conferences etd, his is the only one I remember. Strange, that...

Anyway, I thought you were above personal attacks?

"Some soldiers in armored vehicles hit by DU munitions, their rescuers, and individuals who spent prolonged periods of time in the vehicles as part of cleanup details (and who were not wearing adequate respiratory protection), may have inhaled enough DU dust to suffer heavy-metal effects."

I think this paragraph is the most telling. Small particle inhalation, particularly when it has any ionizing properties is extremely harmful to the respiritory system. Particle size is also a key property - it's why paper dust produced in converting factories is not considered carcinogenic, whereas wood dust is.

Your report concentrates on the radiological effects - but I think it's a larger issue than that. It's possible the elevated radiation levels are 'safe' - but there is no denying a cause and effect scenario regarding post war environmental health. I find hard to believe all that DU lying around, as well as the chemicals from DU impacted vehicles have nothing to do with the situation.

Tell me, what are your thoughts on Gulf War Syndrome? Or do you believe it's a compensation scam, for instance?

[wulfie]

I wasn't able to get on the internet when this story broke, but better late than never:

When a big story breaks, ignore what you hear for at least 5 days.

Remember, the KIA total on 9/11/01 was initially 16,000 or so.
Mike/wulfie

p.s. miko2d please email me at AH_wulfie@cox.net! I need an email address for you.

[Toad]

Well, I haven't seen the interview, so I'll stop here. But I'm still skeptical, having pretty much lived my adult working life with the guys that do those jobs. Overall an extremely high quality group of individuals; not the sort to revel in the killing of other humans. They will revel in the shot well made or the job well done, however. If you think about it, one would have to be able to disassociate the job from the killing, wouldn't one?


Do tell, though. where's the personal attack in any of that? I merely said that you revealed more about yourself (to me anyway) than you did about the A-10 pilot.


I find THIS paragraph the most telling, which is why I quoted it before:

Given that, radiation from depleted uranium is highly unlikely to have been responsible in any way for either the "Gulf War Syndrome" among veterans or for any of the variety of illnesses observed in the Iraqi population since the war.

[/color]

I think there probably are health issues related to the Gulf War. I don't think you can group them to one cause, however. We innoculated the troops with a lot of "new" vaccines and such. There may well have been chemical/bio weapon use or the destruction of chemical/bio weapons may have spread some of the agents. There's DU, although that report pretty clearly highlights who would be most at risk there. I'm sure there's also so "scammers" in there too; there always is when talk of money gets around.

So is there a Gulf War Syndrome? I don't know. If there is I suspect its not from one single cause but several. But I'll take the EFNS report on DU over that of a few reporters trying to sell Sunday papers.

[wulfie]

I think 'Gulf War Syndrome' was caused by alot of guys (mainly reservists) getting a ton of vaccinations, etc. all at the same time (when us regular guys got most of them on a normal 'schedule') and then, with weakened immune systems from said vaccinations, they were exposed to alot fo bad stuff (smoke from burning oil fires, maybe trace elements of chem/bio weaponry), etc.

That oil fire smoke was freakin' nasty, certainly didn't do anything good for anyone exposed to it.

Also, the heavy immunizations all at the same time - that's the reason little kids have them spaced out, so as to not overtax the immune system.

From official study it looks like the weakened immune system combined with the contaminants caused ALS like effects and symptoms in alot of guys.

Mike/wulfie

[Monk]

Most of those vehicles on the so called "Highway of Death" were
empty before they were destroyed.