Author Topic: Stem celly goodness.  (Read 1420 times)

Offline bounder

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Stem celly goodness.
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2002, 08:47:28 AM »
as a card carrying member of the World Association of Liberal Handwringers, I can hand you a simple moral code in two sentences - no Spooky Santa Spirit or Other God necessary:

1. Do as you would be done by.
2. Always look after yourself well.

No claim to a higher authority, no dogma, no frills. It's hard to live up to but the harder I try the better my life gets.

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2002, 08:55:34 AM »
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Originally posted by SOB
And here I thought it was about a woman's right to choose what is right for her and her body as opposed to some amazinhunk(s) who don't know her or her situation dictating what she should do because they don't "think it's right".  What was I thinking?!


SOB


Yep, its her right to terminate the child she is carrying - still doesn't change the fact she killed/murder the baby does it?

So you approve using abortion as a casual means of birth control?
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Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2002, 08:59:59 AM »
The definitions were from Collins English Dictionary - and an expensive dictionary it is too, not some cheap pocket thing. The difference is that you are specifically referring to liberalism as a political affililiation (as stated in your definition) - I am referring to liberalism as a non-political ideology. The redistribution of wealth is a liberal policy simply because it is a progressive policy.

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My definition is more along the lines of
conservative=keep traditions, morals, values etc bla bla blah, change what is bad/must be changed, keep the rest.


YOUR definition - which is exactly my point. You move onto shakier ground as soon as you move away from objective definition and take-up a subjective viewpoint. Which traditions? Which morals?

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Uh... I'm just trying to point out that some of the ideas that you might want to call "liberal" and you would like to credit to Adam Smith or whomever might actually be older than that, and you can find the core of those ideas in the Bible.


This diference is you're describing a book of ideas whereas I'm talking about actual historical events, when ideas became reality. The act of reform and the instigation of progress - the cornerstones of the liberal movement.

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There is a world of difference between Christianity and Islam.


Really? And the Bible has no passages it would rather forget or declare 'not to be taken literally'?

As for the Koran - selectively quote to support your arguments, all you like. But it has some worthy content just like the bible. It has distinct rules of engagement in war, for instance. Women and children must not be harmed. Livestock and crops must be left untouched. The enemy must be armed and willing to fight for a Jihad to be just etc etc.

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Apparently anyone who does something "terroristic" is a terrorist and not a soldier? Where does that leave the Nuremberg trials one might ask...were all those German soldiers "terrorists"?


Anyone who uses violence to further a cause could be described as a terrorist, yes. Within war? Depends if you define war to be legalised murder or judicious killing.

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Basically ANYONE could be a terrorist...


Basically what you are arguing here is not that the definition is wrong, but that that the definition flies in the face of what we have become accustomed to visualising when we hear the word 'terrorist'? Does that make the definition incorrect though?

Also, a terrorist is especially associated with a politcal cause, as the definition states. A rapist, a bank robber are unlikely to fall into this category. Terror is not the tool, it is a by-product of their actions; the terrorists sole concern is to cause enough terror to draw attention to their cause or further it.

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2002, 09:35:48 AM »
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Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
The definitions were from Collins English Dictionary - and an expensive dictionary it is too, not some cheap pocket thing. The difference is that you are specifically referring to liberalism as a political affililiation (as stated in your definition) - I am referring to liberalism as a non-political ideology. The redistribution of wealth is a liberal policy simply because it is a progressive policy.
[/b]
Well, that is because they did not have any other definition of conservative that made sense. "He dressed conservatively".

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YOUR definition - which is exactly my point. You move onto shakier ground as soon as you move away from objective definition and take-up a subjective viewpoint. Which traditions? Which morals?
[/b]
Relax sunshine. It is not me who came up with that definition. Every heard of someone named Hobbes? If you think about it for more than one second you will realize that it is an objective definition.
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Really? And the Bible has no passages it would rather forget or declare 'not to be taken literally'?
[/b]
I suppose that would depend on who you ask...The Bible just is, people might have opinions on what they feel should be added or deleted, but the Bible just is.
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As for the Koran - selectively quote to support your arguments, all you like. But it has some worthy content just like the bible. It has distinct rules of engagement in war, for instance. Women and children must not be harmed. Livestock and crops must be left untouched. The enemy must be armed and willing to fight for a Jihad to be just etc etc.
[/b]
Please do go ahead and quote those passages. Or better yet, try to disprove my statement that Islam is a very agressive religion, while Christianity is not.
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Anyone who uses violence to further a cause could be described as a terrorist, yes. Within war? Depends if you define war to be legalised murder or judicious killing.
[/b]
Lets make it simple and assume that I am talking about Germans in ww2 gunning down civilians. Terrorists or soldiers? My definition of war is neither legalised murder or judicious killing.
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Basically what you are arguing here is not that the definition is wrong, but that that the definition flies in the face of what we have become accustomed to visualising when we hear the word 'terrorist'? Does that make the definition incorrect though?
[/b]
Uh, actually it does, yes.
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Also, a terrorist is especially associated with a politcal cause, as the definition states. A rapist, a bank robber are unlikely to fall into this category. Terror is not the tool, it is a by-product of their actions; the terrorists sole concern is to cause enough terror to draw attention to their cause or further it.

If you look at the definition you presented you will see that it says "esp. politically" that must mean that it does not have to be politically motivated.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2002, 09:59:38 AM »
Come one, come all!!

Come watch the amazing Hortlundio argue without actually saying anything at all!

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2002, 10:12:20 AM »
Wow! I just read this whole thread and I'm convinced.....





Stevies a liberal!

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2002, 10:18:52 AM »
Ahh, come on Thrawn and Midnight...is that the best you can do?

Here we have a veritable smorgasboard (heh, never thought I would use that word in a BB conversation) of topics to debate.

Abortions, Liberalism, Conservatism, Christianity, Islam, Terrorism, ww2 massacres, The Bible, The Koran, Stem cells, US politics, Lobbying...you name it.

Heck, if only we could get some guns into this discussion this could be the only thread the O club would ever need.

And what do you guys come up with? Steve is a liberal and Steve can argue without saying anyting?

Back to the drawing board gents.

Offline H. Godwineson

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« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2002, 10:26:28 AM »
As I said earlier, by the time most women know that they are pregnant the fetus has already developed a heartbeat and a brainwave.  It is life, in spite of what any doctor or medical expert says.  The statement that the fetus is not life is strictly an opinion on their part.  Most women that are having abortions are not having them because their lives are in danger but are having them for the sake of convenience.  If they do not want a child they should NOT have unprotected sex.

There is a certain mindlessness to the argument that it is a woman's right to choose.  I contend that if she opts to have unprotected sex with a man she has given up her right to choose whether or not she will have a child.  How many women do NOT know that such an action could lead to pregnancy?  A former female student of mine once made the statement "A girl can't always choose the father of her children."  She didn't have the wit to realize that she was doing exactly that every time she had unprotected sex with a man.

I have no sympathy for the women who use abortion as a tool for removing an impediment to their free-wheeling lifestyle.  Such actions indicate that many women no longer have a moral compass.  If they don not want to have a child then use a contraceptive.  

Or else they need to get up off of their backs and get their feet out of the air.


Regards, Shuckins

Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2002, 10:35:44 AM »
He's ugly and his feet stink.

:p

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2002, 10:47:00 AM »
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Originally posted by H. Godwineson
As I said earlier, by the time most women know that they are pregnant the fetus has already developed a heartbeat and a brainwave.


Ants also have heartbeats and brainwaves...better watch where you step.

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It is life, in spite of what any doctor or medical expert says.  The statement that the fetus is not life is strictly an opinion on their part.  


No one is saying it's not life,  we are saying that it's not a human being.  I would like to point out that our friend the mosquito is life as well.  Better not squish her.


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Most women that are having abortions are not having them because their lives are in danger but are having them for the sake of convenience.


It's there body who care's why they are doing they have to live with consequences of TWO peoples actions.  Why isn't anyone putting any blame on MEN for having unprotected sex?

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If they do not want a child they should NOT have unprotected sex.


Who says they aren't?  unprotected sex isn't 100% guaranteed.

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There is a certain mindlessness to the argument that it is a woman's right to choose.  


I don't think that's where the mindlessness lies.  It's with men trying to tell women what to do with thier bodies.


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I contend that if she opts to have unprotected sex with a man she has given up her right to choose whether or not she will have a child.


So in your opinion, she can chose to have an abortion if she used protection and it failed?


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How many women do NOT know that such an action could lead to pregnancy?  A former female student of mine once made the statement "A girl can't always choose the father of her children."  She didn't have the wit to realize that she was doing exactly that every time she had unprotected sex with a man.[/B]


You kinda answered your own question there.  So now you want to make this student and possibly a baby pay as some sort of punishment for her stupidity?  

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I have no sympathy for the women who use abortion as a tool for removing an impediment to their free-wheeling lifestyle.  Such actions indicate that many women no longer have a moral compass.  If they don not want to have a child then use a contraceptive.  


Let me get this strait someone who uses abortion as a contraceptive tool has NO MORAL COMPASS, so you wnat them to RAISE A CHILD INSTEAD??

« Last Edit: November 19, 2002, 10:49:56 AM by Thrawn »

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2002, 10:53:05 AM »
Perhaps if men didn't contribute to the pregnancy of stupid women, abortions wouldn't occur for some of the reasons they do now.

Everyone do your part =)
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2002, 10:53:34 AM »
Abortion clinic doctors are murders?

I guess vetinarians are murderers too... go blow them up!
-SW

Offline hardcase

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« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2002, 11:57:34 AM »
It is the moral majority that ties stem cell research with abortion. Stem cells exist in the umbilical cord. They would have you think that a fetus is aborted to harvest the cells. Typical misinformation from the Christian Right. Perhaps if GW allowed the exisiting stem cell lines to be used, instead of the narrow group that is not the best cell line for research. Bottom line, is that the research is going on around the world, it would just be better and faster in the US with its ability to fund research. Perhaps an education if science would help the less informed, then again, many think the world is 6k years old and creationism is science.

No one requires you to use the product of research to cure your problems. You have an issue with stem cell research,  just don't avail yourself of it. Denying others because of your belief system is really quite selfish. I am quite secure in supporting lifting the ban on using existing cell lines, harvesting cells from the umbilical,using cells from aborted fetuses,miscarriages.

BTW, living in the 12th century is not confined to the muslims is it?

HC

Offline hardcase

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« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2002, 12:07:18 PM »
One last thing, a belief system is about how you live your life. Not how you make others live theirs. Exploding bombs to advance Islam, only differs from those who deny medical advancement, by the degree and the immediacy of their involvement.

Then again, killing Doctors and bombing clinics is an accepted tactic of the far right isnt it?
Misinformation is a subtle bomb.


HC

Offline Kanth

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« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2002, 12:07:43 PM »
btw,
the original quote from the article is talking about stem cells from

bone marrow from the patient who is being treated for the heart problem.

nothing about taking from anyone other than the patient himself and certainly nothing about fetus or umbilical cords..

stem cells do not equal fetus/umbilical

I'm sure you all realize this but I figured I'd point it out anyway.

carry on.
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