This Friday were off to the Agean...

[Shane]

Originally posted by Löwe
Hey don't go there............. Actually I never understand why conservatives are viewed as racist, when it seems to be liberals are always bringing up the differences in people.

lol, i see you're a tad behind on current events?  Harry Belafonte made the remark that Powell was being a houseslave to the administration.  was a big flap in the press a bit back. i think belafonte is a dem so you might have a point. he's also ummm let's see what the proper PC phrase is these.. african-american?

i just took that remark and applied it in teh context of Bush being deemed an idiot, and how powell functions on several levels of helping, or at least trying, to moderate the current administration's geo-political stance.

personally i'm neither dem or repub.. i'm more of a middle of the road moderate with socially liberal and fiscal conservative leanings.

[ergRTC]

Yeah, same here shane.  I voted perot back in 92, just to show you how clueless I am.  

I would be a republican, but I just dont agree with corporate handouts.  THats why Mccain is da man.  Republicans woulda won in a landslide had they nominated mccain.  Really is too bad, but money runs politics, and mccain has that wierd problem with his personality called 'ethics'.  Not many politicians left that are like that.  

Biggest thing I was hoping for was the campaign finance reform, and now that is getting gutted.

[ergRTC]

Oh, I also believe liberal social policies (you know like all of us getting together to pay for stuff like school, roads, government, the military, social security, medicare).  Not all of us getting yanked on taxes while the rich declare bankruptcy 3 times every decade so they dont have to pay a damned thing.  

Did you guys know that CEO's now make on average 500X the amount of the wage laborer?  Back in the early 80's during the height of that yuppie crap it was on ly 50X more.  Makes a guy wanna go socialist hearing about that.  Companies laying off 2000 employees to save money when the Ceo is pulling down 15million in wages and stock options.

[brady]

Field capyuter for everybody.

[Löwe]

Sorry for the late reponse fellas had to go back to work. Yeah Shane I heard what Harry Belafonte said, tis a pity. However Bush is president not Powell, and the General is a wise enough man, to know if he's being treated unfairly. I'm damn glad he's Secetary of State. My lovely wife Linda is a huge Democrat. Actually I'm more Liberal than you think. I believe in equality across the board, be it race, religion, sex, sexual preferance, a womans right to choose. I'm for all that. Then again I'm for lowering taxes, personal gun ownership, and keeping government out of my life as much as possible. So I'm really a Libertarian, I just never have a candidate to vote for.

[Karnak]

GRUNHERZ,

I wasn't talking about the Agean setup.  The Spit Mk anything would be completely out of place there.  If that's what prompted your idiotic "Spit 14" rant, maybe you should try reading.

I was refering to the Po Valley, Italy setup being discussed.  I didn't even realize what an asinine mistake you had made until your second post refered to the C.202.  I'm afraid that I had too high an opinion of you.

[GRUNHERZ]

The Spit XIV thing isn't about what you said, toejam I didnt even read your posts THAT CAREFULLY.  I was just making fun of the old "Spitfire for Balance" whines in CT..  

Talk about missing the point Karnak...

[ergRTC]

Wow there was a spat for nothing.

Lowe thats my beef with the republicans.  They are all about smaller government as long as its getting gov  out of buisness.  They are all for smaller gov. when its reducing help to people having a hard time of it (they closed this session without dealing with the 825,000 people who are going to lose there unemployment benefits december 28th, merry christmas, democrats were threatening to hold up the homeland 'screw you in the bellybutton and take away your privacy' bill but that was politically impossible after the last election).  They are all for increasing government oversight on a womans body, what drugs you can use, whether you can vote (DC residents do not have any representation in congress, thats nearly 700,000 people that pay taxes with no representation, more than montana, wyoming, north dakota, and nearly as many as south dakota.  When Trent Lott was asked about representation for DC he said basically "no way in diddlying hell").  If the Republicans would just be consistant, stop bending over and grabbing their ankles for big business, and try to keep the religious right from running/ruining there party, I might consider voting for one of em.

[Löwe]

I have it on good authority, they do what they do just to piss you off.

I still say though to all of you people that hate big business, and corporations. Give up your job,your clothes, your car, your computer, your house, and don't but any food. They come from big business.
As materialistic as this society is don't you think it's absurd to constantly rant against the people who provide the materials everyone craves? Same thing about whining about the oil companys. Aside from from trying to force everyone into GEO's do you ever consider petrolium goes into the manufacture of just about every product you buy? I'm not for corprate welfare, but it is funny the Democrats scream about it, like it's a Republican only
problem , yet they have no problem bailing out American Airlines. Hmm isnt Tom Daschels wife a big lobbyist for American Airlines.
Both side do it Erg. Don't vote for any of them, it only encourages them. Hitech for president, then we can all sit around waiting for  Government V1.11

[GRUNHERZ]

I once had this heated debate with a raving left wing, anti- business, anti-globalization communist type at my school.  The only thing more hillarious than her bizzare arguments that day was seeing her get into her expensive late model Japanese import car after class!

[ergRTC]

I dont have a problem with the products of big business, just the way they treat the working man (yes I have !worked! as a tig/mig welder, landscaper, managed a resturant, father has nearly 40 years in the railroad).  We can have nice cars, radios and plastic without having to deal with guys like Roger Smith or the lobbyists that work for them.  Government is supposed to be for and by the people, representing the people, not corporations that are not responsible for their actions.  'whats good for GM is not good for america' if it means moving jobs to mexico and sending the corporate headquarters to jamaica in order to stop paying taxes.

The fact that Daschle married a lobbyist just demonstrates how corrupt the whole system is.

[Löwe]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I once had this heated debate with a raving left wing, anti- business, anti-globalization communist type at my school.  The only thing more hillarious than her bizzare arguments that day was seeing her get into her expensive late model Japanese import car after class!

LOL yep Greenheart, nothing like a Misguided Crusader.

[Kweassa]

I still say though to all of you people that hate big business, and corporations. Give up your job,your clothes, your car, your computer, your house, and don't but any food. They come from big business.

 That's like saying "If you find problems with AH, then you aren't allowed to play it."

 Remeber, people provide things because someone buys them, and thus makes profit out of those who buy. Customers are entitled to an opinion because the the modern captialistic way of life is a life of exchange. We don't have to thank the 'big business' for anything. They aren't running it for free. The "in-debt" conditions are mutual.

 However, the problem lies in the fact that because human life is inevitably affected greatest by material environment, in an environment where things can be exclusively privatized, effectively things and issues that are vital to the quality of life, and most often life itself can also be privatized by a few who make profit of it. So, it is in truth a simple matter to control and suppress people not directly(as in the past history in the form of slavery, peonage, peasantry, or etc) but indirectly, by buying and altering the material conditions around them.

 For instance, one of the classic examples of such problems are welfare in the form of financial insurances, or hospital services. They aren't free, and thus, they are distributed to those who can afford it. This meets a fundamental crisis when it is involved with "life", something that cannot be measured with money. As I mentioned in some other thread, 70 million North Koreans are in a state of poverty. That's enough to condemn the regime as being inhuman and incompetent. However, turn your eyes on to yourselves and then you can see 45 million Americans are homeless, illiterate, living under minimum/no wage conditions, can not receive welfare, and are hopelessly beyond salvation by sympathetic form of philanthropic/financial "welfare" provided by private institutions.

 ...

 The comments on "big businesses" are yes, idealistic and often very simplistic. However, it is a popular sentiment and carries with it an inkling of truth about life in modern society, just as the cynical "Dilbert" strip simplifies life of white-collar citizens with a satire and yet, grabs a certain amount of truth inside.

 Whilst some comment of the most "conservative" era in American history as the 1950's, a closer look easily reveals the condition and quality of life in 2002 is nothing like what it was in 1950 - where everyone could have their own homes, full-time jobs, cars, receive active welfare, receive job security, go to school with less money and etc etc. People living in 2002 are tolerating conditions which would have been intolerable in 1950.

[Löwe]

Originally posted by Kweassa
That's like saying "If you find problems with AH, then you aren't allowed to play it."
 

No that's not what I'm saying at all. If you put it in AH terms, what I'm saying is. If you think it's evil, and blame all the worlds problems on AH, Then don't play it.

I know very few people like the ones you see on comercials, that have brand new cars, big houses, and the perfect life.
I make less than 30K a year, I can only afford health insurance for my children. My wife has hers through work, if something happens to me I'll have to depend on a VA hospital. I work for a  local compamy that made 10 million last year. The owner put the majority of the money back into the company. We get no Christmas bonuses, I usually work two jobs during the holidays to ensure my children, and wife have a good holiday. A Christmas bonus would be great, and some of the guys I work with pisss and moan and say negeative things about the owner. However the man started this company in his garage in 1978. He employs over 100 people in the area and has done well for himself. He has a big house, big cars and even an airplane. There are people that target men like him as whats wrong with the country. In my opinion he's whats right with it.
Why should he after working his butt off all his life and providing jobs, and taking care of his family be taxed to death, or be held responsable for the plight of others. Just because he has struggled to become rich and successful, that makes him a bad person worthy of the class warfare aimed at Americans like him?

I'm reponsable for me and mine, if I fail to take care of myself or my family, it's not George Bush's fault, Big Business' fault, it's my fault.

Yes there are people that need help badly, and there should be programs to help them. However there are a lot of people that refuse to help themselve's and expect somebody else to do it for them.
I got a brother in law of 25 years, that I love as a brother. he works for the rail road in Arkansas, his union went on strike during the 80's, he didnt work for 3 years, and blamed it on Reagan. He didnt look for other work once, just waited for the union to call him back to the RR. He and my sister both whail bloddy murder against Republicans for the hard times they went through in the 80's Then he brags about how they take turns sleeping in the cab of the locomotavies on the night shift.  Unless you are  suffering from mental, or physical, handicaps that can't be overcome, how can you blame your plight on anyone but yourself?

[ergRTC]

I dont think that people should not be allowed to make insane amounts of money, but the fact is, in our current regressive taxation and attorney schemes, the rich get richer when they dont need to and feel no responsibility to the people that get them rich.  I would love to have a bunch of money, but I would not want to do it at the expense of good hard working people.  I know many lazy bellybutton sobs that dont deserve a dime, but I also know many many guys that work hard for next to nothing, for large companies that pay panzy bellybutton morons for doing nothing.  People should be rich because they make or invent something that is useful to society, not because they can abuse their laborers better than the next guy.

All through the 80s my father was constantly being laid off from the railroad.  He would mow lawns and cut wood to put food on the table.  This was because of the recession, and the anit labor attitude of the republicans.  Supply side /trickle down economics may work okay in the long run, but in the meantime people are hungry and children dont get what they need.  I prefer in giving the money to the worker not the employer.  If the worker has money, he can buy stuff.  If he can buy stuff than the employer gets money.  If you give the money to the employer, he can expand his business and employ more people, or as we have seen historically (as demand drives growth and profits) they just pocket the money, move to a golf community, and put a big stone wall between them and their poor starving theiving, undecuated and increasingly violent work force.