Author Topic: Christians, doesn't it annoy you... (Read 3746 times)

Kieran · « **Reply #60 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:22:27 PM »

Wrong. You don't know what is going to happen, therefore you are making your choices. Just because God knows what you are going to do doesn't mean He made you do it. God did give you the choice to do as you will, He just knows how it is all going to come out.

Yes, it does matter what you do, and praying sure doesn't hurt.

mrfish · « **Reply #61 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:27:02 PM »

that's one of the many inescapable contradictions of christianity arfann- ooops that's not offending anyone is it- gee i'll step lightly as possible here so no one feels persecuted

god wants you to have freewill so you will choose the right thing, but you can only take one path through time and god already knows what it will be, so freewill is an illusion.

in fact he already knows the whole outcome to the big picture battle between good and evil so we really are just slot cars going along a path known to at least god since the beginning of time and our freewill can't possibly exist.

so what's the point of god setting up all this drama in the first place.

Kieran · « **Reply #62 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:35:32 PM »

The point you always miss- He didn't set your path. He gave you the tools and the purpose, and left it to you make the choices. You aren't on a slot even if God knows what you are going to do. You can alter your path this instant one way or the other... jump out a window and see if things don't change for you.

The problem with understanding God's ability to know the future is the coupled false assumption the reason He knows it is because he set all our paths in stone.

Arfann · « **Reply #63 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:37:33 PM »

Gotta love the religious paradigm. Pray (Chant, meditate, count beads, whatever) and if what you pray for happens it's a miracle. If it doesn't, well, it was just not meant to be, in God's plan, in your karma, etc., etc., etc., . . . . . . . . . . .

mrfish · « **Reply #64 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:42:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
You can alter your path this instant one way or the other... jump out a window and see if things don't change for you

wow, and you mean god wouldn't know that i was about to suddenly take a different path? god wouldn't have seen that coming? i guess he's not omniscient afterall.

Apache · « **Reply #65 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:49:28 PM »

lol Kieran. Sssswissshhhhh! Went right over thier heads.

mrfish · « **Reply #66 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:56:40 PM »

well you're enlightened apache, maybe you can explain it:

say i find a wallet on the street and no one is looking and it has $500 in it.

i presumably have the freewill to return it or keep the money- or to ignore it or a host of other choices. in the end i can only choose one of those options because of the restrictions of our universe. if god is omniscient then he already knows what that choice will be. it's pointless for him to give me some mechanism to establish myself as a righteous or sinful person because the outcome is already known-

it's not like i can choose to return it and impress god- he already knew whether i would choose to return it or not.

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #67 on:** January 02, 2003, 01:58:04 PM »

Kieran, I understand what you are saying... but really, your life has already been decided before you were born.

Sure, he gave us "free will and tools to create our lives"... but before we were even concieved, our direction in life was set. We can "change" it... but in the end, we didn't, because we were already going to do it anyway.
-SW

Kieran · « **Reply #68 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:00:16 PM »

It would appear so, Apache.

I'll say it again... God will let you jump. God knew you were going to jump. God did not make you jump.

See it now?

As far as miracles are concerned... take the account of Moses. Now God knew what was going to happen. It was time to move Israel out of Egypt, and he knew what was going to happen. Still... each individual was given choice and acted on that choice. God certainly did intervene when he planned, but it doesn't mean he made the individuals do anything in particular.

Jesus did raise people from the dead, that qualifies as a miracle, correct? That He knew He would do this ahead of time doesn't make it less a miracle. Jesus could see the future as well, foretelling the fate of the Apostles and the world.

But if it was all predestined, why warn people of their choices at all? To you it is all a cruel joke; to me it means I have a choice, and the choices I make do matter.

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #69 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:03:33 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
I'll say it again... God will let you jump. God knew you were going to jump. God did not make you jump.

But you were already pre-disposed to jumping.
-SW

Kieran · « **Reply #70 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:05:25 PM »

Quote

Sure, he gave us "free will and tools to create our lives"... but before we were even concieved, our direction in life was set. We can "change" it... but in the end, we didn't, because we were already going to do it anyway.
SW

But what you are saying is God made you do it. That is a rather critical point to make, because it completely changes the character of God.

Let's put it another way; assuming the absence of God, given the same set of circumstances you would probably make the same choices, correct? Now, without God's presence you are perfectly willing to accept you controlled your path. Why is it if I stick an omniscient observer in the room it changes?

mrfish · « **Reply #71 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:05:51 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kieran
It was time to move Israel out of Egypt, and he knew what was going to happen. Still... each individual was given choice and acted on that choice.

why would he give someone a choice if he already knew what would happen?

isn't that kind of like playing with dolls?

god: "well polly prissy pants do you want some tea"

god doing polly voice: "well i don't know, yes i guess"

god: "good choice, here you go"

AKS\/\/ulfe · « **Reply #72 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:08:04 PM »

It doesn't, I haven't said anything one way or the other about a God in this thread.

I was just saying... your life was determined before you set foot on this earth going by some religion's (maybe all of 'em, I dunno) set of beliefs.

Is this wrong? No... does it matter? No.... but to say you had a choice and free will to make that choice... how could that be possible if you were going to do it regardless?
-SW

Kieran · « **Reply #73 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:08:14 PM »

No, it isn't.

These dolls can truly interact with Him if it is their desire. They can refuse to "play" with Him, too. Either way, it is their choice.

Kieran · « **Reply #74 on:** January 02, 2003, 02:10:32 PM »

AKSW-

You'll have to forgive my assumption. This was a thread about God, thought that's what you meant.

Troubling thing about predestiny... it removes all personal responsibility for everything. Whether the outcome is known or not, the individual chooses the path. The individual is responsible for those choices.