Author Topic: Where Fur and Strat Collide... (Read 9312 times)

AKcurly · « **Reply #345 on:** July 07, 2003, 05:44:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
curly... you are NOT payintg attention... the early war area that I am talking about would not be accessable to late war planes... you couldn't get there and pork anything in a late war plane. Get it? both it and the regular area would have caturable fields and both would have seperate resets... when you captured one countries 7 or so early war fields then you would (lol) "win the early war".

so what is the potential problem again?

lazs

Lazs, there's a lot of things I don't do. Paying attention isn't one of them. I have tried 3 times to make you understand the following issue (and I'm giving up after this one!): Having separate resets requires a change in the game engine. Now, that may not be a big deal to you because the phrase rolls off your tongue so easily, but it is a big deal. It's not just a setup issue.

Changing the game engine is a gigantic social issue if you have a working product. Let's say it takes 2 weeks to bring out a "Lazs special game engine." What if it has unforseen consequences that make the game a total dog?

I guess the largest problem I have with two separate areas within one arena (and one of them a furball area) would be the obvious: The furball side would consume the lion's share of the bandwidth allocated to the arena. In a furball, bandwidth consumption is approximately related to the square of the number of participants. That's not good, Lazs.

curly

SlapShot · « **Reply #346 on:** July 07, 2003, 05:53:39 PM »

"I guess the largest problem I have with two separate areas within one arena (and one of them a furball area) would be the obvious: The furball side would consume the lion's share of the bandwidth allocated to the arena. In a furball, bandwidth consumption is approximately related to the square of the number of participants. That's not good, Lazs."

Curly ... basically, wouldn't we be trading where I would be on a map to where I would be in the furball area ... wouldn't it basically remain equal ?

If 50 pilots are fighting in the furball area, wouldn't those 50 be fighting somewhere else on the map if the furball area were not available ?

BGBMAW · « **Reply #347 on:** July 07, 2003, 05:59:51 PM »

lmfao..muck..i love your "best furballers"

But come on luz..dont be a sissy....

lets here the "only good MAW"..

only reason i want u to posts its...is cuase you are so wrong....but run and hide....

Come on..try it....

And Ice and needlepoint...god..thats funny too..

Luz u son of a bich..i almost have u on my anti-chek6 list....
for ur spewing crap like this..

Quote

bbg... like I said... bout four guys worth a damn... you will probly lose em.

what u need to look up stats before u posts??

you can do it..what the hell else can u do in dixon...lololol

funny you cant do it...!!!!!!:p

anyways off to furball and pork and bom and GV....weeeeeeeee

Love
BiGB
xoxo

CptTrips · « **Reply #348 on:** July 07, 2003, 06:07:13 PM »

Quote

Curly ... basically, wouldn't we be trading where I would be on a map to where I would be in the furball area ... wouldn't it basically remain equal ?

Not really.

Lets take an extremely simple example.

Say you have 3 guys in an arena. Say they are all in completely different sectors. They might not need to send any updates at all to each other or very low bandwidth information. Maybe they only need to report their dar position and maybe only every minute or so.

Now, take those same 3 players and put them in close,visual proximity to each other. Now the frequency and bandwidth of the updates are much greater. X,Y,Z position. Roll,yaw,pitch velocity. Roll,yaw,pitch acceleration. Smoke, gun firing, ordinence data. etc etc. Not only is the amout of data much larger but its needs to be updated with much greater frequency. (once every ~0.25 sec).

If I remember correctly, one of the intended purposes of the larger terrains was to spread out the density abit to avoid localized saturation. That way a given server hardware can support a larger number of simultaneous players. By distributing the load.

9 guys spread out in 3 separate fights of 3 each is much less stress (and less warpage) than 9 guys in one cluster fudge.

Wab

SlapShot · « **Reply #349 on:** July 07, 2003, 06:13:40 PM »

Thanks Wab !!!

nopoop · « **Reply #350 on:** July 07, 2003, 06:58:39 PM »

Thx Wab, learned something today. I see now how large census small map scenario could cause problems.

..but I still see Creamo hunched in that room sitting on his heals sticking hunting knives into the dusky carpeted floor..

Gazing out a dirty paned window his eyes all of glass..

Mumbling at someone who isn't there..

Dangerous..

WldThing · « **Reply #351 on:** July 07, 2003, 10:09:41 PM »

And like 38Maw?

beet1e · « **Reply #352 on:** July 07, 2003, 10:53:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
ANY change that gives the early war planes a chance is a plus for the game

- including an RPS? Well, you did say ANY change...

AKcurly · « **Reply #353 on:** July 08, 2003, 01:20:16 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SlapShot
"I guess the largest problem I have with two separate areas within one arena (and one of them a furball area) would be the obvious: The furball side would consume the lion's share of the bandwidth allocated to the arena. In a furball, bandwidth consumption is approximately related to the square of the number of participants. That's not good, Lazs."

Curly ... basically, wouldn't we be trading where I would be on a map to where I would be in the furball area ... wouldn't it basically remain equal ?

If 50 pilots are fighting in the furball area, wouldn't those 50 be fighting somewhere else on the map if the furball area were not available ?

What wabbit said. But to emphasize the impact of numbers, think about this:

Scenario 1. 5 planes in a rolling fight, all remaining in visual contact. Each plane's FE must maintain exact position and velocity information on the other planes. So, for 5 planes, that's 5*4 or 20 position/velocity updates each clock tick.

Scenario 2. Up the number of planes to 20. Same deal, except this time, there 20*19 or 380 position updates for each clock tick.

Scenario 3. Up the number to 50. 50*49 or 2450 position updates each clock tick.

It's an N^2 problem.

Now, the beauty of the late war planes is that 50 planes probably can't stay in visual range of each other --- but, I'll bet ya 50 early war planes can.

curly

BB Gun · « **Reply #354 on:** July 08, 2003, 02:28:31 AM »

I dunno what's sadder....

You guys writing all this....

...or me reading it.

Nothing ever does really change, does it?

At least I learned a few new names, and familiarized myself with a number of old ones.

BB <-- you'll probably see me here when WBIII finally kicks the bucket.

beet1e · « **Reply #355 on:** July 08, 2003, 05:48:46 AM »

BB Gun! Nice to see you! What a surprise! How's Laurie?

Hehe, the community is very different here. I'll tell you in private.

One thing that's changed - I can finally fly 109s - and get more than one kill per week. You helped me on that in WB, and others have helped me over here. I'm still no expert, but glad to have made some progress. If you've got the film viewer installed, you could view one of my sorties. But sssshhhhh.... some folks in here don't like it when people talk about their films.

lazs2 · « **Reply #356 on:** July 08, 2003, 08:24:26 AM »

wavbit and curly... I didn't ask for a furball arena... I asked for an early war area within the arena. HT told me it was possible to have the seperate resets (said, "that would work"). Are you saying that there is no place for early war planes in a sim because they would tend to fight each other?

What you guys seem to be saying is that we can't have large furballs in an online sim because the servers can't handle it and that large maps with no action is the only option. You map makers aren't just porking the game and making it unfun.... you are actually our friends and saving us from ourselves?

curly claims that if we had the early war area and it wasn't popular that it would be a waste of time and totally destroy gameplay.. That is not true.. If no one went there it would be a non issue. There would be seperate resets so it wouldn't matter if either area were reset.. ever. I think that there would probly be less guys in the early area but we will never know unless we try.

And.... If is impossible to have real furballs in an online sim them what is all this bull about a seperate arena for furballers? if they can't build an arena that can handle em then why bother?

No.. the real issue is that the stamp collectors are afraid that no one will play with them if they are not forced to. If we have any options we will avoid them just like back when we were all in school.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

lazs2 · « **Reply #357 on:** July 08, 2003, 08:25:45 AM »

BB how ya doin? Man, I can't believe you are still over there..

lazs

SlapShot · « **Reply #358 on:** July 08, 2003, 08:48:24 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKcurly
What wabbit said. But to emphasize the impact of numbers, think about this:

Scenario 1. 5 planes in a rolling fight, all remaining in visual contact. Each plane's FE must maintain exact position and velocity information on the other planes. So, for 5 planes, that's 5*4 or 20 position/velocity updates each clock tick.

Scenario 2. Up the number of planes to 20. Same deal, except this time, there 20*19 or 380 position updates for each clock tick.

Scenario 3. Up the number to 50. 50*49 or 2450 position updates each clock tick.

It's an N^2 problem.

Now, the beauty of the late war planes is that 50 planes probably can't stay in visual range of each other --- but, I'll bet ya 50 early war planes can.

curly

You mean like the furball we had going last night ... there were at least 50 planes within a very short distance of each other. I didn't notice any server burps nor warps during the fight. Also, I would think that 50 planes would probably be the max at any one time within the furball area ... more than likely and at most times, the numbers would be lower.

I understand what you are trying to portray, but between last night's furball and others that I have been in (CV furballs), I don't really see this as a problem. I could be (AK)wrong ...

lazs2 · « **Reply #359 on:** July 08, 2003, 08:59:23 AM »

exactly slap.. There would never be more than 50 planes all in the same area in the early war area of the arena... The late war area would also have even less action than it does now... Late war planes would dominate and they never fight.

the early war area would not be fields that were end to end... there would be 3/4 of a sector seperation and say... 5-10 fields to choose from/spread the load.

I think it is smoke and mirrors and... an excuse.
lazs