Author Topic: Walter Nowotny's grave  (Read 3781 times)

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2003, 12:41:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
The "filter" you mention should have something to do with the principles advocated by the group recognizing the hero.
 

And here we disagree. Personally I am of the opinion that there were many German heroes in ww2, just as there were many Soviet heroes in ww2, just as there were (probably) some Italian heroes in ww2, and there were possibly even some french heroes...

Or Soviet heroes in Afghanistan, or Chinese heroes in Korea, or Vietnamese heroes in Vietnam, o...let me know if you want me to continue of if you get the picture.

Offline midnight Target

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15114
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2003, 12:50:01 PM »
In the narrow context of your point, we agree. Heroes exist in all groups.

All I'm saying is that some of those heroes don't deserve our honor, based upon the groups that find them heroic.  

Nowotny for example.

Offline Animal

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5027
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2003, 02:11:43 PM »
Fishu, Horlund, read carefully.

Hartman, Nowotny, etc.
They were really good pilots who shot down a lot of enemy planes. That might make them heroic in a way; maybe they saved their buddies many times, or maybe they shot down an allied bomber that would have bombed a baby food factory.

But in the context of the original topic, how is Nowotny a NATIONAL AUSTRIAN HERO?

Please read the following points before answering. Now dont be lazy Hortlund, dont let your childish vendetta against me rush you into skipping this post in order to make a vague "MY TURN!" reply, read it all this time! :)

1.) He fought for the very person who brought devastation to his own country and very probably his own family. He voluntarily provided for the suffering of the Austrian people.

2.) Most of his kills were part of a ruthless and unjust invading force. He was not defending his homeland, he was aiding in the invasion and destruction of other people's homes.

3.) He died defending Germany, not Austria. His feats of valor (a key word here, something he had lots of) were rarely connected to Austria; it was all done for the Fuhrer and for the glory of a Nazi Germany. You might push it by saying he was a hero to Germany, maybe they will take his remains as such? He was only buried in that national hero cementary because Hitler wanted to set an example of the kind of men he wanted on his side: cold blooded, unquestioning killing machines who will shoot defending planes down by the hundreds, as to make his conquests easier.

So why should he be considered an Austrian National Hero? *WHAT EXACTLY DO THE AUSTRIAN PEOPLE OWE HIM IN ORDER TO WORSHIP HIM AS A GREAT NATIONAL HERO?*

Can you answer that question clearly?

That being said, I stand by my opinion that in this age, after waiting so long, it is idiotic to remove his remains. You can not change history.

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2003, 02:12:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by midnight Target
I think its pretty simple Hortlund..

The "filter" you mention should have something to do with the principles advocated by the group recognizing the hero.

John Dillinger was a hero to bank robbers and thugs... should he be honored?

Many men were heroic to the 3rd riech, I put them in the same category as Dillinger.


Did John Dillinger do it for the people or himself?
Answer lies there

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2003, 02:48:45 PM »
Ok ok, I will let our vendetta rest for just a short while in this thread ;)

How is Nowotny an Austrian national hero? Austria was at war, he was a soldier. He was very good at what he was doing, he killed alot of enemies, and he saved alot of friendlies. He was highly decorated, in fact, as high as you could back then. I'd say that qualifies him for that "hero"-title.

1) Why did he fight? We dont know that. Men fight for lots of reasons, some do it out of love, some do it out of hate, some do it because they have no choice, some do it because they like it, some do it because they believe they have to, some do it because they believe the cause is just...why did Nowotny fight? I dont know. I suspect he fought for the same reason everybody else were though, his country was at war, and he was called into service.

2) Well, in hindsight you might be right. But before you judge a man like that, you should try to walk a mile in his shoes. The first question you should ask yourself is "was it his fault that Germany was fighting an aggressive war" then you should go on with question nr 2 "did he really have a choice whether to fight or not".

3) Wrong.

What do the Austrian people owe him? What does Austria as a nation owe him?

Nothing more and nothing less than it owes all those men who like him, in a time of war, put on a uniform and fought and died for their country.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2003, 02:52:55 PM by Hortlund »

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2003, 03:18:00 PM »
Whatever will be the final lenght of thir thread you won't decide for the Autrichian.



Btw since when someone doing his duty and nothing more is a hero ?
What personnal achievement Nowotny has done no one else have done ?
Was his wingman less a hero ?

Offline Hangtime

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10148
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #36 on: July 21, 2003, 08:35:08 PM »
Quote
Btw since when someone doing his duty and nothing more is a hero ?


There are circumstances where doing one's duty becomes a heroic act..  if Nowotny had shot Goering or Hitler or switched sides and flown for the allies he'd be a hero.

as it was; he, along with hartmann and all the other german aces were simply servants of a murdering dictator. Not hero's. Noteworthy skills to be sure.. a warriors, certainly. I can respect his skills.. but despise him as a puppet. Hartmann went on to fly for the modern luftwaffe.. respected by his nato counterparts.. but not regarded as a 'hero' by anybody i know of.

 
Quote
What personnal achievement Nowotny has done no one else have done ?


he may have shat the largest turd in the squadron outhouse for all i know.. IMHO, recipents of the Iorn Cross are not by default candidate heros to the folks that owe allegience to the opposing side. on the other hand, if hitlers team had won the war he'd no doubt be a deity by now and certainly an 'austian' hero..

Quote
Was his wingman less a hero ?


his wingman would be a hero if he shot nowtny down and then defected. of course, he'd be a hero without a job.. who in hell would fly with him afterwards? (exclude FDB's from your replies)

;)
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2003, 01:43:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
(exclude FDB's from your replies)

;)


damm , I cannot :p

Btw checking the greek definition of Hero made him a hero ...
He is not a son of a god ( like  Héraclès/Hercule ) but he is a warrior like so he was a hero

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #38 on: July 22, 2003, 05:52:47 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime
There are circumstances where doing one's duty becomes a heroic act..  if Nowotny had shot Goering or Hitler or switched sides and flown for the allies he'd be a hero.

Thats funny..because in everybody elses book that would have made him a deserter and a traitor.

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #39 on: July 22, 2003, 05:57:06 AM »
You mean every other Nazi? Let's provide a term of reference for your 'everybody' statement.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 06:00:21 AM by Dowding »
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Nash

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11705
      • http://sbm.boomzoom.org/
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #40 on: July 22, 2003, 06:12:31 AM »
My 2 cents: I think it's the cemetery's right to define what "hero" means as it pertains to being qualified (for lack of a better word) for burial there.

Question: What do you think would happen if it was discovered that a person buried in Arlington never served?

Offline Hortlund

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4690
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #41 on: July 22, 2003, 06:39:59 AM »
Everybody as in everybody...btw, nice nazi reference a**hole.

Looks like the nazis managed to infiltrate the dictionarys too...


de·sert
Pronunciation: di-'z&rt
Function: verb
Etymology: French déserter, from Late Latin desertare, frequentative of Latin deserere
Date: 1603
transitive senses
1 : to withdraw from or leave usually without intent to return
2 a : to leave in the lurch b : to abandon (military service) without leave
intransitive senses : to quit one's post, allegiance, or service without leave or justification; especially : to abandon military duty without leave and without intent to return

trai·tor
Pronunciation: 'trA-t&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English traitre, from Old French, from Latin traditor, from tradere to hand over, deliver, betray, from trans-, tra- trans- + dare to give -- more at DATE
Date: 13th century
1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty
2 : one who commits treason

Offline crabofix

  • Parolee
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 481
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #42 on: July 22, 2003, 06:43:39 AM »
Seams to me that the Austrians is trying to wash their dark spots of the history away. Would be better if they started with the people that where responsible for it all: the Nazis.

(Austria as well as Sweden have been protecting war criminals since the war).

But the term "Warcriminal" has changed since the Nurnburgtrails, as the "Haag convention" and the "Geneva convention" is no longer supported by the bigest superpower in the world
(who was prosecuting the Nazis for crimes against Peace, Trade, the Haagconvention and the Geneva convention. Same "superpower" is also forcing belgium to change their laws, that gives them the right to prosecute against crimes of war and humanity commited anywhere in the world).

Regarding this: Yes Nowotny must be concidered a "hero" by the new standards set.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2003, 06:46:43 AM by crabofix »

Offline Dowding

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6867
      • http://www.psys07629.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/272/index.html
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #43 on: July 22, 2003, 06:46:06 AM »
I was trying to point out the subjectivity of the connotations that are inextricably linked with the words 'traitor' and 'deserter' and also trying to seek clarification as what cause such a person would be a 'traitor' or 'deserter' to.

You can't escape the fact that Nazism was the cause to be propagated by continued participation on the Axis side. I'm sorry if that causes you offence.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4287
Walter Nowotny's grave
« Reply #44 on: July 22, 2003, 07:01:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund
Thats funny..because in everybody elses book that would have made him a deserter and a traitor.


Only to Nazis and likeminded groups.

To modern day Germans, chances are he would of been idolized had he gone allied and fought against the Nazi Wehrmacht.

Lest we forget, modern day Germans hate everything Nazi-esque.
-SW