Author Topic: Perk the La7 (Read 12736 times)

MANDOBLE · « **Reply #105 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:49:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SpitLead:
AH being a primarily furball low altitude arena, the La7 should be perked because of it's performance.

It seems we are getting to the point. What is more dangerous in a low level furball, a hispano armed hyper-agyle spit or the faster an less agyle La7?

Drex · « **Reply #106 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:51:00 PM »

Yes it would be nasty, but let me say this not all historical variants/models fall into just those that did well in real wwII egagements. The Tempest has fantastic attributes that lend it self to doing very well in arena type battles(e-retention in a zoom, strong guns,great acceleration at low alts, and great manueverability in the 200-300mph range). Your right she should not be unleashed.

Drex

Apache · « **Reply #107 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:58:00 PM »

Now we are advocatng perking planes because of performance?! Thought the criteria was numbers or arena dominance?

The La7 is the dominate low alt fighter just because it's fast? Are you serious?

How can we continue to argue this perk thing based upon performance in the MA? The La7 was not built to fight the SpitIX, for example. Of course it's faster. It (La7) was designed to fight B&Z LW aircraft.

If we are to perk aircraft based on performance, if I read some of these posts correctly, then perk the spit as well. Its overall performance is too good for the MA. It turns well, retains E well, carries a 20mm along with either the .303 or .50 MG and is just to balanced for the MA.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #108 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:58:00 PM »

Yes I agree that some late war weapons that could be perked should potentially not be... some should be though.

SpitXIV (yikes!)
Ki84 (imagine a N1K2... but better)
La7 (I guess.. I mean we DO have the La5, and throwing a LaGG3 in the equation would give a more early war model)

The list goes on for late war planes that could potentially be a menace... but there are *some* mid/late war planes that could be perked because of their abilities.

However, if you perk a SpitIX(for example) based on it's ability to "compete" in a "furball" arena then you pretty much smack yourself in a face for keeping the faster rides in the arena unperked.

IMO, there is no way to classify a plane as being a "best" for "this type" of arena.

Okay, so the SpitIX can dive, has a *DECENT* top speed, climb rate and a good turning ability. Just last night I upped ina P38, zoomed down, shot down 1 SpitIX, 1 IL2, and 1 B26 while diving through a 109, N1K2 and SpitIX. None of them caught me in 25 miles of running on the deck.

Basically what I'm saying is, perking some planes for their percieved abilities in the so-called Quake arena leads to you losing probably your favorite ride.

You perk all of the TnBers, and man... that's gonna be one boring arena. you perk all of the BnZers, It's going to be a quick action arena but if you enjoy flying a 190D9 or P38L or P51D- it's gonna cost ya.

I think Metallica said it best:
"Careful what you wish for, you may regret it.
Careful what you wish for, you just might get it."
-SW

Dowding · « **Reply #109 on:** June 28, 2001, 03:13:00 PM »

Superb information Tilt! And thanks for the tip on the book, mate. I'm going to look into it.

BTW, the graph I posted is HTC's own graph - it isn't actually mine. You'll find it in the planes part of the 'game overview' section of the HTC website. There's also a chart for rate of climb versus altitude - do you have info on that aspect of the La-7 to compare?

Apache · « **Reply #110 on:** June 28, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »

Agreed SW. You gave the response I was looking for. It would be down right stupid to perk the spit wouldn't it? IMHO, the same goes for the La7.

BTW, We do have the spitV after all

Perking the La7 because its fast is just ludicrous to me. Uh oh! The typhoon is fast also!

Drex · « **Reply #111 on:** June 28, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »

Agree SW, but you are forgeting one other thing. The pilot. You know how the dynamics of the furball. That is part of the wisdom of SA. You know that a plane like the 38 can go fast through a furball and pick off 1 - 3 planes and then zoom up while 2 more fall off your tail for the lack of E. Rinse and Repeat.

Thats why I don't have a problem with them finding a way to perk pilots. A lot of things go into the equation.

Drex

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #112 on:** June 28, 2001, 03:31:00 PM »

Yeah I agree with you about Pilot's Drex, which is one of my main "Sounds okay.. BUT..." problems.

The way I look at it, 7 years of this I'm no longer a newbie so I don't necessarily find the SpitIX fun. I find other things fun, I like to keep refreshing myself and trying something new. So these ideas of perking do _NOT_ hurt me in anyway...

Now don't take me as a crusader, but I'm looking at this from the newbies point of view or a plane specific lovers point of view.

It would kill them to force them into something else if they came here for something HTC has offered that is only costing them a monthly fee rather than working during that month to get the points to accrue to the set price of the ride of their choice.

Perking pilots, I'm assuming you mean based on points or rank or something that certain planes cost perk points for certain "ace" pilots.

That sounds fine, but I'm not sure how you can regulate this or decide on who's hot stuff and who's just hovering over a furball getting lucky.

There's too many ifs, ands or buts in the entire perk system... so this may just be the best way to implement (as they have it now), but who knows. I'm not pretending to know it all, just guessing what could happen and the downfalls of a new system.

I look at the cons first, then the pros. If I don't like what I see in the cons list I'm not even going to bother weighing what I see in the pros list.

Although the perking pilot's idea sounds interesting Drex... what are your thoughts on this?
-SW

Drex · « **Reply #113 on:** June 28, 2001, 04:00:00 PM »

You got it down. Perk system is imperfect. About your crusade for the newbies. I think that cause is more worthy then the few that want the planes perked so the newbies can't equal their intermediate skills with a better performing plane. Several schools of thought here.

About perking the pilot. This one is a complicated mess. You have so many variables that make up a kill. You have several different methods of getting a kill.

One pilot might get 10 kills per sortie and another pilot that gets 5. The pilot that gets 10 is real cautious, mart even. He patrols the outer parts of the furball and picks off his victim that is focused on another plane.

The pilot who gets 5 kills per sortie is in the mix. He is killing those in front of him and reversing those that come on his 6. Its a beautiful thing to watch and only a handful in the world can do it. In fact if the guy who got 10 kills per sortie would fight the guy with 5 kills per sortie. The pilot with 5 less kills per hop would win.

The first type of pilot is easy to score. His attributes are those that stats are geared for. The second type of pilot is harder to rate.

and then you have to agree on which type of pilot is considered better.

Its a mess huh.

Drex

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #114 on:** June 28, 2001, 04:05:00 PM »

Very much a mess, but I can tell you've thrown the idea around in your head quite a lot thinking of different situations, engagements and scenarios.

The perk system is a crazy setup, but it could be considered genius... if only PCs were programmed to be smart enough to intelligently discern engagements and such, then perhaps rating based on how many kills someone gets and how he gets them.

There's a lot of interesting options.. but I think just about all of them run into a dead-end.

-SW

Tilt · « **Reply #115 on:** June 28, 2001, 04:39:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding:
There's also a chart for rate of climb versus altitude - do you have info on that aspect of the La-7 to compare?

its at
http://www.btinternet.com/~fulltilt/Perform.html#La%207%20No.%20452132-76

I'll check it against HTC's....

Tilt

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #116 on:** June 28, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »

It seems that many peole simply don't realize the folley of the "perk the best plane in the arena" concept. When do you stop perking the best plane?

AKDejaVu

Pongo · « **Reply #117 on:** June 28, 2001, 04:54:00 PM »

worse yet they are trying to perk the last plane that shot them down or that they couldnt shoot down.
The la7 is not even that common a plane. you need soft hands good shooting and good efighting skills to make good use of it..
The LA7 is not the best plane in the MA. It has some strengths and has some weaknesses. Good pilots minimize the weaknesses and mazimize the strengths. There is nothing dweebish or crutchlike about it. It is not forgiving or easy. Its just fast down low.

Tilt · « **Reply #118 on:** June 28, 2001, 05:55:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding:
There's also a chart for rate of climb versus altitude - do you have info on that aspect of the La-7 to compare?

its no spread sheet graph but........

Note that HTC seem much closer to an AC that had one slat open for the whole climb!(Pilot having to compensate with aileron) The other slat opened prematurely at 230 km/hr IAS which was a bit earlier than should have been. (210 to 220 km/hour)

I have copies of all the original Russian files for this stuff. Kindly found for me by one Yura Nikitin (Arctic Fox of WB).

Like all these things it comes to some measure of game balance. I would only be miffed if there was any thing (currently in the HTC set)that could out climb an la7 below 8k. I reckon its more important that the AC are comparable to each other rather than some real life data.

Tilt

SpitLead · « **Reply #119 on:** June 29, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »

The issue here is the fact we DO have a perk system in place. And until that current system gets changed or goes away we all have to live within it. You can talk all you want about perking the pilot or some other such thing but that doesn't do anything about the here and now.

What is the current rationale for perking airplanes? I believe it's because the plane has some special performance abilities that would give pilots a decided edge. Case in point, the Tempest. The Ta152 has special performance at altitude for BUFF hunting and the Arado has a jet engine (it's special performance edge being its uber speed for a bomber) The only reason the CHog was perked because of it's high usage and kill ratio namely due to its cannons. I see the CHog as the EXCEPTION rather than the rule to perking.

So.... if the groundrule to perk is that it had a decided edge in performance I say the La7 falls into that category. And it's not just about being fast either. The Tyhpoon is fast but it sucks in acceleration AND climb as well and with the new reduced roll rate can't turn that well either. With tremendous acceleration of the La7 and it's great climb speed, instanteous turn rate coupled with the very fast speed on the deck it's a COMBINATION of these flight characteristics that make it a top performer in the MA. You always have to keep in mind the arena environment that the fights are taking place in. Do I think you should perk ALL the top performers?? No, each airplane should be judged on a case by case basis. I'm just making my point for this particular case.