Author Topic: Perk the La7 (Read 11523 times)

Dowding · « **Reply #90 on:** June 27, 2001, 01:11:00 PM »

Here ya go Spitlead. Some real facts

. The quotes in bold are taken from 'La5/7 in Action', the veracity of the information therein is regarded as accurate. It relates to the production La-7 not some prototype.

"The standard production La-7 had a top speed of...367 mph at sea level."

Take a look at the chart showing the speed versus altitude for the Aces High La-7; you'll see the black line intersects the speed axis at... about 367 mph! Fancy that!

"At 20,000ft the the La-7 had a top speed of 407mph...

Again, take a look at the aforementioned graph. At 20,000 ft the La-7 has a speed of... about 410 mph. Amazing!

OK, that's the unbelievable, unrealistic high speed dealt with

. Now let's look at climb rate:

"The climb rate was greatly improved [compared to the La-5FN]. The La-7 easily outclimbed the Fw 190 A-8 up to 16,404 feet. The La-7 reached this altitude in 4.95 minutes, while the Fw 190 A-8 required six minutes."

Hmmm... check the AH La-7 and you'll find it is remarkably close to this value.

I'm sure Verm has much more info to give you.

BTW, those that flew the La-7 positively mullahed the LW in the closing years of the war. Between 15 September and 15 October 1944 the 63rd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment scored 55 victories (52 FW190s and 3 109s) for the loss of only four La-7s. Perhaps pilot quality counted to some degree, but the fact remains that the la-7 was a superb fighter.

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]

SpitLead · « **Reply #91 on:** June 27, 2001, 02:26:00 PM »

Dowding, Vermillion... touche

Let's assume for the moment that the La7 is in fact modeled correctly. Several of your points in fact then make my case (IMHO).

Vermillion mentions that it's speed is close to the Tyhpoon and D9. These are 2 of the fastest airplanes in the arena and the Tyhpoon is noted for it's speed on the deck yet even with comparable 'e' states I've seen a La7 catch a Typhoon. The D9 is a screamer for speed yet again I've seen a La7, on the deck, catch a D9. Again, MOST fights happen in the MA below 10K. That's a fact.

Dowding, you mention how the La7 mauled the LW in the fall of 1944. There you go. Agreed, some of this fact might be due to pilot skill dilution on the part of the LW. However, you said yourself it's a superb fighter, even besting the best LW airplanes. If we agree that it is modeled correctly and it really IS this good of an airplane then it should be perked. Hands down it'll beat a Ta152 yet it's perked 70 points and can take on a CHog any day of the week and it too is perked.

So considering the advantages of the airplane and how those advantages specifically play into combat in the MA, again I say perk the La7 if only at the cost of 8 pts.

Dowding · « **Reply #92 on:** June 27, 2001, 02:53:00 PM »

I see what you are saying, but I was referring to the fact you disputed the FMs validity.

It is a superb plane - but surely so is the Dora, G-10 even the 202 in right hands.

You mention MA combat. I maintain that the La-7 is in no way dominant in the arena - it is not used as much as the spit or niki, and it's stats show it is far from imbalancing. It is not another F4U. If it ever came to the point where it had 20%+ of kill in the MA and you couldn't move for seeing them, I'd agree with perking it.

But I just can't see the justification for solely perking it while leaving the Dora, G-10 and other late war planes alone.

SpitLead · « **Reply #93 on:** June 27, 2001, 03:23:00 PM »

Enough said. Cheers Dowding and Vermillion and all the rest who responded with competent remarks. There's no more to be said (IMHO). Both sides of the argument have been covered ad nauseam

SpitLead out

Tilt · « **Reply #94 on:** June 27, 2001, 06:12:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Dowding:
Here ya go Spitlead. Some real facts . Between 15 September and 15 October 1944 the 63rd Guards Fighter Aviation Regiment scored 55 victories (52 FW190s and 3 109s) for the loss of only four La-7s. Perhaps pilot quality counted to some degree, [ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]

For more info on this period of the 169 IAP (renamed 63 GIAP in March 43) and other La 7 regiment combat histories (176 GIAP, 4GIAP KBF, 9GIAP, 2GIAP, 111GIAP, 171 GIAP, 31 GIAP) I can highly reccommend the book

Lavockin La-7 by Milos Vestsik.

ISBN 80-902238-7-7

Its a translation from the original czech book of the same name with the czech text still carried.

For coal eaters its easily available from Midland counties books (01455233747) at only £9.95. You will quickly find that "fighters in action" (which I also have) begins to gather dust once you have read this.

Tilt

LaVa · « **Reply #95 on:** June 27, 2001, 06:22:00 PM »

When the end comes to this old world "the rats will cry and the rest will curl up."

will he take the time sort your ashes from mine.?

Will i win the lottery?

LaVa

Vermillion · « **Reply #96 on:** June 28, 2001, 06:45:00 AM »

Spitlead

Its all about acceleration and initial E states! I won't argue that you have seen La7's catch Typhoons or Dora's. I've also seen N1K2's catch P-51s. Does that mean the N1K2 is faster? Of course not.

There will always be an aircraft that is "best" in some category. The La7 is the fastest on the deck, but only on the deck.

The Key to beating a La7 is don't fight its fight. Don't get down below 5k alt, and slow.

Sorry I didn't get to post that data for you last night, but I had to prepare to go out of town for my job. But as Dowding has stated, the La7 in AH matchs the best data I have seen for production La7's.

For an excellent book on Soviet Fighters, I would reccommend.

Soviet Combat Aircraft of the Second World War : Single-Engined Fighters
by Yefim Gordon, Dmitri Khazanov
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1857800834/qid=993729243/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/107-9745368-7826915

An excellent resource with some very good data in it.

Tilt · « **Reply #97 on:** June 28, 2001, 10:34:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Spitlead

But as Dowding has stated, the La7 in AH matchs the best data I have seen for production La7's.

Agreed infact Dowding's curve shows the AH La7 to be slower (above 10k) than early 45 production variants with the Ash 82 FNV engine.

I have over drawn Dowdings AH curves with the ones for this AC. The only reason I can think of on HTC's behalf is that they have modelled the older Ash82 FN engine (which did not have the better "higher" alt performance of the V varient).

Unfortunately the 3 gun version always had the V variant engine.

Tilt

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #98 on:** June 28, 2001, 10:39:00 AM »

Quote

But as Dowding has stated, the La7 in AH matchs the best data I have seen for production La7's

By "best data", do you mean most accurate or highest numbers? I seem to remember a thread about the La-7 actually being undermodeled in the Aircraft forum some time ago<a my data vs your data discussion>.. though that may have been the La-5.

AKDejaVu

Tilt · « **Reply #99 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:11:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKDejaVu:

By "best data", do you mean most accurate or highest numbers? AKDejaVu

Good point. I have now made the plot for air craft La 7 45213276 via spread sheet and its here

For sure... of the 6 tests I have figures (of varying detail) of they are each slightly different and show an improvement from August 44 thru to May 45 with performance getting better (generally). So some one has to choose.

for top speeds at the following altitudes (non wep km/hour TAS)

floor/3000m/5000m/6000m/climb time 5000m

la 7 45210150 Aug 44 582/647/651/674/5.1

la 7 45210203 Aug 44 555/634/627/652/4.95

la 7 45213276 Apr 45 580/654/651/677/4.65

la 7 38102663 May 45 579/645/641/661/5.25

63 was made at a different factory to the others and is the only 3 gun version. All tests started at fully loaded weights.

Tilt

SpitLead · « **Reply #100 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:18:00 PM »

Sheesh Tilt do you have a job? How can you find the time to do this stuff

Drex · « **Reply #101 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »

The perk system has a flaw.

The planes are perked from a historical frame of mind and not a furball/arena frame of mind.

Drex

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #102 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:20:00 PM »

Drex, you have to admit though...

If you unleash the Tempest unperked on the arena.. it would be hell on us all...
-SW

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #103 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:21:00 PM »

Double post-o-rama
-SW

[ 06-28-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]

SpitLead · « **Reply #104 on:** June 28, 2001, 02:28:00 PM »

Drex,

You are right on. Basically, that's the point I'm trying to make. AH being a primarily furball low altitude arena, the La7 should be perked because of it's performance. I wasn't sure if the FM was accurate (see original post) but with data posted I think it's safe to assume it's modeled fairly accurately.