Favorite plane

[Xjazz]

Hi,

I fly 98% of time Hurricane Mk I in h2h.

Funny slow kite:)

[SirLoin]

F4U-1

It's not the easiest plane to get kills in but it's very satisfying when you do get it to work for you.

[moot]

Lev I dunno about you, but my brain is wired in a way that defensive flying is automatic, I don't really think about anything, there's just two types of moves: right and wrong.
Spit5 permits you anything, except trying to keep up with faster planes.
You can dodge to eternity with equal pilots spit5 vs (fast 'bnz').
To counter and get a sure shot, the bnz has to use some E, and that's what Urchin means, I think, that to press on enough for a kill, the bnz's E adv. is going to run out sooner or later.


my fav is the 152, just because.
F6F I used to really like, but everyone flies it now, so the novelty's gone.

[moot]

and let's face it, who cares about extending for 1 min at a time to keep your E safety margin. We're talking about furballing here, not real life.

If we're doing the one-life approach, you're creating a sphere around planes that is proportional to their reach on you for a killshot, and we're basically not allowing any risk, which equals no engagement at all in many cases.
That's the fun of furballing in a less maneuverable plane, minimizing mistakes so that you can count on the opponent to make enough more than you to allow you into that sphere for a kill.

I don't know how else to describe it. There's a gradient from maneuverable and slow, to fast and unstable, where if you've a plane insanely fast and almost incapable of going anywhere but in a straight line, you'll only get one shot, whereas the insanely slow plane just bends anyway it likes, and if the fast plane does anything at all, it's a free kill for the slow plane.

[Wilbus]

What a hilariously ignorant rant. You don't "work" for kills in a Spitfire? The Spit V probably requires as much if not more work than just about any plane in the game in order to achieve a kill. Why? It's slow, very slow. Sure, it can dodge BnZ attacks more easily than, say, a 190A5. But dodging requires work. Setting up enemies, maintaining speed, hiding energy, trying to keep faster planes from bugging out... these all require a lot of work. In a co-alt, co-E engagement against just about any plane save some of the earliest war stuff, the Spit V rarely enjoys the luxury of disengaging and taking a break. It has got to get that kill quickly or, often, not at all.

Well, the 190 A5 can't disenage any more than a Spit 9, it's slight SLIGHTLY faster in the long run and it accelerates far worse. It also climbs and zooms worse. IF the 190 A5 has more E from the beginning it can get away, but it can never keep up with an accelerating or diving Spit 9.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by moot
Lev I dunno about you, but my brain is wired in a way that defensive flying is automatic, I don't really think about anything, there's just two types of moves: right and wrong.

[/b]

I don't think defensively.  Everything is offensive in the long term.  The ultimate goal for me is to shoot down the enemy plane, not to simply avoid it.

Spit5 permits you anything, except trying to keep up with faster planes.

[/B]

Anything?  I wasn't aware that the Spit V could outclimb an La7 or 109G10.  Or that it could outturn Zekes at low speed or any number of planes (such as Typhoons, 190A5s, or P-47s) at high speed.  It surely can't zoom climb with P-51s or P-38s.  It's a pretty balanced package when you factor in its guns package, but let's be realistic.

You can dodge to eternity with equal pilots spit5 vs (fast 'bnz').

[/B]

Dodging does not equal killing.  The Spit V can neutralize, but except in situations where it suckers enemies and manages a snapshot or causes a screwup, it cannot dominate the fight from a lower energy position.  The chances are pretty good that against equal pilots, the lower Spit V will never equalize energy states.

To counter and get a sure shot, the bnz has to use some E, and that's what Urchin means, I think, that to press on enough for a kill, the bnz's E adv. is going to run out sooner or later.

[/B]

Against a Spit IX (and Urchin is mostly talking about the Spit IX because it suits his argument better than a Spit V) this may be true.  Against something like a Spit V or a Zero or an FM2 (which can also dodge BnZ attacks with regularity), just about any plane with an energy advantage can count on maintaining it long enough to bug out if things go badly in the aggressiveness phase.  This assumes equal pilot skills of course.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Urchin
See, thats where I think you are wrong.  The Spit 9 is one of the best planes for E fighting, in my opinion.  It climbs great, it has great high speed handling, and it retains energy pretty well.

[/b]

The Spit IX is about the most balanced plane in the game.  Naturally it excels in many roles.

I've fought 109g10 vs spit 9, and the spit 9, given enough time, will equalize the E states to the point where it can follow the 109 down when the 109 decides to run, and hose it out of the sky before the 109 can pull out of range.

[/B]

If a Spit IX equalizes energy states with a 109G10 to the point where he can kill it before it flees, the G10 is doing something wrong.  A Spit IX may neutralize an E-fighting G10, but the G10 holds almost all of the cards in such an engagement.

If you don't bleed off enough speed initially, you'll die. If you do everything right, but take one hizoo... hispano round to the tail as the spit flashes past, you'll die. There is no middle ground.

[/b]

If you do everything right, you won't take a Hispano round anywhere.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[moot]

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying

I don't think defensively.  Everything is offensive in the long term.  The ultimate goal for me is to shoot down the enemy plane, not to simply avoid it.

No offensive to concretize until the opportunity happens, that might as well be defensive. Otherwise I don't fly defensive either, and this is just semantics.

Anything?  I wasn't aware that the Spit V could outclimb an La7 or 109G10.  Or that it could outturn Zekes at low speed or any number of planes (such as Typhoons, 190A5s, or P-47s) at high speed.  It surely can't zoom climb with P-51s or P-38s.  It's a pretty balanced package when you factor in its guns package, but let's be realistic.

Don't start the smack. That's what the end of the sentence is for, it says except keep up with them. That's what the basis is.

Dodging does not equal killing.  The Spit V can neutralize, but except in situations where it suckers enemies and manages a snapshot or causes a screwup, it cannot dominate the fight from a lower energy position.  The chances are pretty good that against equal pilots, the lower Spit V will never equalize energy states.

And that's what I mean, you're at a never-ending dodging match untill the bnz starts spending more E to buy him a closer shot.

Against a Spit IX (and Urchin is mostly talking about the Spit IX because it suits his argument better than a Spit V) this may be true.  Against something like a Spit V or a Zero or an FM2 (which can also dodge BnZ attacks with regularity), just about any plane with an energy advantage can count on maintaining it long enough to bug out if things go badly in the aggressiveness phase.  This assumes equal pilot skills of course.

Yes, it doesn't work as well with the crappy planes, but who flies a TBM against a 262 on purpose? The zeke and spit5 can dodge eternally, I've done it and the only time I died when really trying was upping in the middle of a vulch with 1 or no friendlies to distract, or after an out#'d fight when more reds show up and I'd no time to get off the deck and past 250mph.
Why do you fly the best handling plane of all? Besides the paper kites.
And we aren't talking about bugging out, we're talking about killing the opponent as only purpose.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by moot
Don't start the smack. That's what the end of the sentence is for, it says except keep up with them. That's what the basis is.

[/B]

I'm not trying to "start the smack."  If you've read any of my posts on this forum, you would know better.  What I'm trying to do is create a realistic analysis of plane strengths and weaknesses.  It seems natural for people who feel attached to a particular plane to talk up its weaknesses and talk down its strengths in order to create the perception that flying it well requires lots of "skill" or whatever.  I've flown lots of planes over the years in Aces High, and while I would consider many of them very distinctive and different, I wouldn't call one substantially easier or harder.

And that's what I mean, you're at a never-ending dodging match untill the bnz starts spending more E to buy him a closer shot.

[/b]

Right, I know what you're saying.  But even if the BnZer fails to obtain the kill in such a situation, he often has the option of bugging out before energy states completely equalize.  It's ultimately up to the BnZer to dictate or not dictate the terms of the fight; the lower, slower plane must capitalize on mistakes and hope that the enemy messes up by becoming overly aggressive or not egressing when he had the chance.

I was speaking more of co-alt, co-E situations in response to Urchin's original post.  Let's face it, it pretty much sucks to be low and slow in anything against anything.  Even an SBD can kill a low, slow 262 given the right circumstances.  The target of BnZ requires the enemy to screw up in some way in order to achieve the kill.

Yes, it doesn't work as well with the crappy planes, but who flies a TBM against a 262 on purpose? The zeke and spit5 can dodge eternally, I've done it and the only time I died when really trying was upping in the middle of a vulch with 1 or no friendlies to distract, or after an out#'d fight when more reds show up and I'd no time to get off the deck and past 250mph.

[/b]

Talk about starting the smack...  you do realize that a Spit V won't really go past 280-300mph on the deck once parasitic drag kicks in?  So you wouldn't have been able to create enough separation from the enemies coming into that fight even if you'd wished it... at least not before faster planes boxed you in.

Why do you fly the best handling plane of all? Besides the paper kites.

[/b]

I fly the Spit V because I enjoy it.  I probably have enough perk points to fly 262s for months on end, but I don't.   Why?  I don't enjoy flying them.  Why do you fly one of the most underrated, well-armed, better-handling Luftwaffe planes of all?

And we aren't talking about bugging out, we're talking about killing the opponent as only purpose.

I'm talking about a Main Arena environment.  In other words, I'm discussing survivability as well as killing ability.  In a pure dogfight against equal pilots where everyone turns as hard as possible, the Zekes will eat just about everything else for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Turning is just one of many abilities, however, and it's far from the one that determines the greatest balance of survivability and killing power.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Pooh21]

Ok this way

Top 5% of MA
that includes most of you poop flingers and myself.
Vs the unwashed masses

5% flys the Spitv 1on1
Unwashed Masses flys uberrideoftheweek
5% wins

[moot]

The long reply is boring, it's below if you care.

My only disagreement and point is:  you have a big furball, everyone is pretty much in a tnb state, out-turning each other for the kills.
If you show up in a more E-oriented plane, you will have only that E to save you, and as soon as you've lost it, the more 'tnb' planes will eat you for lunch.
Either them, or the planes just arriving at the furball with the altitude and speed you've already spent.

BnZ egressing does not compute since it is not fun.
TnB in those conditions is cake for me, because it'll always be possible to survive (and live to kill), whereas being restricted to (for ex.) a Ta152 means killing to buy your survival.

Originally posted by Dead Man Flying

I'm not trying to "start the smack."  If you've read any of my posts on this forum, you would know better.  What I'm trying to do is create a realistic analysis of plane strengths and weaknesses.  It seems natural for people who feel attached to a particular plane to talk up its weaknesses and talk down its strengths in order to create the perception that flying it well requires lots of "skill" or whatever.  I've flown lots of planes over the years in Aces High, and while I would consider many of them very distinctive and different, I wouldn't call one substantially easier or harder.

right, just surprised you missed my point, sorry.  I don't do that deceptive bragging either.  I agree that no plane's "easier" or harder, but if the MA is almost always a certain type of dogfighting, it must favorise some more than others.  And that because we aren't interested in bore+zoom.

Right, I know what you're saying.  But even if the BnZer fails to obtain the kill in such a situation, he often has the option of bugging out before energy states completely equalize.  It's ultimately up to the BnZer to dictate or not dictate the terms of the fight; the lower, slower plane must capitalize on mistakes and hope that the enemy messes up by becoming overly aggressive or not egressing when he had the chance.

Ok, that's true but that case isn't what I mean, I think Urchin and I are talking about sticking to it and killing as many as possible till you die, not rtb to land kills.
Like you say, BnZ depends on the target's mistake, and if the target makes no mistake, and BnZ-guy is not allowed to ignore any opportunity, neither is effectively controling the fight.

I was speaking more of co-alt, co-E situations in response to Urchin's original post.  Let's face it, it pretty much sucks to be low and slow in anything against anything.  Even an SBD can kill a low, slow 262 given the right circumstances.  The target of BnZ requires the enemy to screw up in some way in order to achieve the kill.

Yes, but what I mean is if you put up a 1:1 (at least to begin with) of those 'bnz' and 'tnb' planes, the fast plane should move to his 'perch' to dictate the fight, like you say, since he can't compete on the knife fight, and that's why the co-E doesn't exist any longer than at merge.

Talk about starting the smack...  you do realize that a Spit V won't really go past 280-300mph on the deck once parasitic drag kicks in?  So you wouldn't have been able to create enough separation from the enemies coming into that fight even if you'd wished it... at least not before faster planes boxed you in.

Ok, the point was I was barely above useful maneuvering speed, might have been anything between 200 and 225 mph. I wasn't going anywhere (what I wanted was those planes dead too), point is I couldn't do anything that time, as opposed to every other one where I wasn't cornered so slow.

I fly the Spit V because I enjoy it.  I probably have enough perk points to fly 262s for months on end, but I don't.   Why?  I don't enjoy flying them.  Why do you fly one of the most underrated, well-armed, better-handling Luftwaffe planes of all?

Because, besides personal appeal, it's still a LW brick, and you can see how useful it is to be underrated and the cream of the LW crop if we'd duel, one in it and the other in a spitV...  

I'm talking about a Main Arena environment.  In other words, I'm discussing survivability as well as killing ability.  In a pure dogfight against equal pilots where everyone turns as hard as possible, the Zekes will eat just about everything else for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Turning is just one of many abilities, however, and it's far from the one that determines the greatest balance of survivability and killing power.

That's fair and I'd say the same thing if it were my point. What I  mean to point out is that there is about the same amount of effort needed to out-tnb or out-bnz planes in a dogfight, but if you eliminate the option to egress (far or close) anytime you've lost your opportunity in a 'bnz', it's not such an easy way to survive and come out on top.
Same thing you might have said about having fun being your calculus. Winning every fight (or making a draw, in the worst case) is not so fun anymore, and (pardon my fat head) that's what flying Spits is to me.

[Wilbus]

it cannot dominate the fight from a lower energy position

Uh duh, of course it can't, no plane can nor should and plane be able to do it, it's the whole "height is might, speed is life" thing.

Some planes do it better though, compare a 190 with a spit (any 190 and any spit) if the 190 gets jumped while flying at 1k alt it don't have anything to go for it. Try the same in a spit and the spit will have a good chance of either staying alive along time or getting a snapshot at the enemy as he zooms by, Hispano helps alot there too.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by moot
BnZ egressing does not compute since it is not fun.
TnB in those conditions is cake for me, because it'll always be possible to survive (and live to kill), whereas being restricted to (for ex.) a Ta152 means killing to buy your survival.

[/b]

I think this is where I both agree and disagree with you.  The Spit V (among many other planes) kills to buy survival as well in such a situation.  I've been in encounters where I've had six or seven guys chasing me down, and the only option was to fight and hope to kill them all.  I'm sure you've encountered the same.

In a furball in a slow plane, whether it turns well or not, you've got to basically kill your way in and out.  Whereas the Spit V might kill the TnBers more efficiently, it also ends up dodging BnZers and hoping for snapshots or mistakes.  The 152 or other less manueverable but faster planes kill TnBers less efficiently but enjoy greater odds of chasing down the faster planes.  God help the crazy guys like Honch who fly P-40s.  When it comes down to it, very low and very slow in any plane in a furball pretty much equals dead.

I think we enjoy different aspects of Aces High, which is cool.  You seem to revel in defeating better turning planes 1 on 1 by turnfighting in an inferior turning plane.  And certainly, should you defeat someone when flying to their plane's strengths, you've demonstrated quite a bit of skill.  I enjoy flying my Spit into whatever kinds of odds and seeing how many I can bag before buying it.  At least we agree that survival is secondary.  

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by Wilbus
Uh duh, of course it can't, no plane can nor should and plane be able to do it, it's the whole "height is might, speed is life" thing.

[/B]

The 262 can, but that's such an crazy plane anyway.  A smart 262 travelling slower than an enemy and significantly below it can equalize energy states almost immediately and remain untouched once the enemy dives in.  I suppose you wouldn't call that "dominating a fight" from below, but it's about as close as you can get.

Some planes do it better though, compare a 190 with a spit (any 190 and any spit) if the 190 gets jumped while flying at 1k alt it don't have anything to go for it. Try the same in a spit and the spit will have a good chance of either staying alive along time or getting a snapshot at the enemy as he zooms by, Hispano helps alot there too.

Okay.  Now jump the 190 at 10k or 15k and see how its odds of survival increase once pure turnfighting becomes less important to the dodging, surviving, and odds turning equation.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Raptor01
They require little or no skill to get a kill... thats why they might be called trainer planes, for the begginers... sure you get more kills with them, but the kills dont mean anything to me unless i had to work for it. I get my fun out of the challenge.

Maybe one day it will dawn on you that it's not the plane but the pilot.  After all a plane only does what the pilot tells it to do.



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