Spitfire IX overmodeled??

[Crumpp]

Didn't mean to bruise your feeling Angus!

If you notice most of my Post refer to the Allied Expediationary Air Force (both USAAF and RAF) which did the grunt work in Normandy.  

Only when refering to Big Week do I use the USAAF.  It was a USAAF operations after all.

Honestly I do not don't draw a very sharp line between Britian and the US.  The British are the best friends anyone could ask for in today's world.  No doubt their resolve stemmed the tide and allowed a combined effort to defeat the Axis powers in World War II.  That same resolve and love of basic human freedoms is still strong today.

Today the British and the United States share operations on a unprecedented level of cooperation.  Their were British Soldiers who could go ANYWHERE in our operations center unescorted ANYTIME.   Same was true with us in their Operations Center.

Yeah once the Limey's realized we didn't give a rat's arze about a King or a Queen and wouldn't be some whippin boy protectorate "Commonwealth" we began to get along pretty good.  Course, to me, Canada is kinda like New Jersey.  Sure its in North America but nobody really cares.  

Crumpp

[Batz]

Originally posted by GScholz
Actually that's not an ad hominem attack.

Did I say it was? Read what I wrote.

[Angus]

RGR Crumpp

[GODO]

Originally posted by Angus
The first fights between the US and the Germans were in N Africa, where the British had the Germans completely on the run.

Just the opposite effect when germans had some supplies there. That war was really won at sea, cutting all and every supply way to the enemy.

[gripen]

Crumpp,
Well, if the allies had had reached air superiority over Germany in March then the losses of the heavies should have reduced in the deep penetration raids. That was not the case; losses increased in April and stayed higher than in February until invasion started. Basicly the Big Week proved that the 8th AF could do suistained high altitude deep penetration raids with tolerable losses and causing simultaneoysly untolerable losses to LW. This was pure material war, both sides suffered exremely heavy losses between February and June. But due to superior production capacity and training USAF could sustain this and  actually their numbers increased most  of this period. In the case of the LW  number of planes and experienced pilots slowly decreased during this period; the LW was losing but was still far from finished when invasion started as losses over Normandy prove. Again it should be noted that  LW fought on several fronts simultaneoysly.

No one has questioned LW's failure in Normandy here. There (and also in most France, Holland and Belgium) the allies had real air superiority ie capability do all kinds operations with low losses ( 1,14% per sortie) and capability to prevent most LW operations. The allies did not reach such air superiority over most Germany until autumn when tactical air forces could operate from the borders of Germany.

gripen

[Angus]

You mean "IF" Godo.
Yes, it was won by the Sea Route mainly. The RN did an amazing job in the med. And also that was helped through Malta. Although the Germans took Crete, the losses were very heavy, and Malta would have been a lot tougher.
So, the Brits won the supply race, and used to its full. The big battle at El Alamein was a demonstration of that.

[GODO]

Originally posted by Angus
You mean "IF" Godo.

No, I mean "WHEN". Just remember the first half of Rommel's campaign at Africa against the Commonwealth forces (everyone was running East). But, of course, with no control over the Mediterranean supply lines, it was only a matter of time.

[Crumpp]

Gripen,

The Luftwaffe was forced to change it's response to the Heavies.  The Jagdwaffe could no longer afford to respond to every raid that came over.  This change in LW tactics did allow them to concentrate their combat power on the raids they did intercept thereby causing more casualties.  
 Galland pulled off a miracle and actually was able to rebuild the LW between Mar ' 44 and Dec '44.  He tested tactics during this time period and was planning on hording his force til It was trained and could deliver his "knockout" blow.  He didn't get the chance as Hitler intervened and squandered the rebuilt Luftwaffe in the ill concieved "Bodenplatte" in the Ardennes offensive.  It's spelled out in Detail in "The Luftwaffe fighter force: A view from the Cockpit".

Crumpp

[F4UDOA]

Gsholz,

I would certainly have a hard time proving you wrong right now.

Batz,

Yes you did rearrange my quote.

You quoted me correctly in the upper part of your own post and then screwed it up in the second half of the same post

So if I changed it how did you quote me? I thought so.

[Batz]

I didn’t misquote you. I just filtered out all the rest of your BS and presented a clearer summation of what it is you were really trying to say.

I already answered you. Do you want to argue about it?

The first quote clearly says; Originally posted by F4UDOA.

The second quote wasn't directly attributed to you but was meant as I stated above. Had I wanted to "misquote" you with the intent to deceive others then I would not have included what it was you actually said and I would have attributed my "summation" directly to you by adding: Originally posted by F4UDOA. What did I say you changed?

You are getting sillier with each post. It seems Pyro is interested in your data. I would think that with his request it would bring this particular thread to an end. But we can go back and forth with the “yes you did”, “no I didn’t” if you want.

[scJazz]

Hey look the level of interaction in this thread is great 130+ posts for a single concept. Just a note the concept is...

Overmodeling of the Spit IX!!!

This isn't an issue of counting number in service/killed/active/regiment formation.

IS THE SPIT IX over modeled?!?!?
 
It has been noted time and again that the IX we have is a collage of the various Spit IX models in existence. In a sense this already points to over modeling of this design. OK the Spitfire was one of those models that was modified in a plethora of ways. Engine type, wing type (guns), wing type (short/long), fuel supply, under wing hard points, etc, etc, etc. It is easy to see why this montage exists.

Can we get back on point?

BTW Hitech... Go back and read the original point that Storch made. Then go and decide whether Storch actually called you a liar or stated that given available evidence that it is reasonable to assume that you might have made a mistake. Possibly. In some unusual universe in which mistakes can occur. Now decide that regardless of the content of the phone conversation that perhaps an apology might be in order.

[GScholz]

First of all the Allies and Germans respected each other in the European theatre (the notable exception being the Eastern Front). The US troops were certainly considered the least experienced, however I don't think this is the same as disrespect. Their fighting spirit was certainly not called into question.

Crumpp, the Allies never achieved air supremacy over Europe in WWII. Air superiority was achieved in early 1944, perhaps even as early as late 1943, but never air supremacy. Even in mid-April 1945, three weeks before the German surrender, the LW flew 1300 sorties per day. Most of these were against the Russians however as they were attacking Berlin.

[Squire]

"I think your talking about the British that the Germans rated the lowest. They took so many casualties in World War I that their doctrine in WWII did not risk taking many"

It was the strategy of all the major armies not to repeat the mistakes of WW1, including the US Army, who was no more interested in large scale infantry battles as the French, Germans or British were. Unfortunately the scope of the war drew all of them into some horrific campaigns. Air power and armor (and huge expensive forts) was thought to make infantry clashes a thing of the past by some pre war thinkers, but it didn't work out that way.

[Steve]

I'm just curious.  Skuzzy told me he doesn't like people bashing other countries.Yet this **** Milo  is allowed to bash the U.S.
Why hasn't Skuzzy booted this retard out yet?

[Squire]

Maybe you should check out the O-Club board. That being said its kinda sad all round.