Author Topic: Spitfire IX overmodeled??  (Read 38884 times)

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #360 on: February 05, 2004, 02:01:02 PM »
Crumpp,
Well, seems that you don't fully understand this issue. According to E. Lund in the most critical part of the BoB (2nd phase, see pages 19-22):

- the LW lost roughly twice more fighter pilots than the RAF + other planes + crew due to fighting area.
"the Germans could afford to trade Me109s, one for one, with Spitfires and Hurricanes!"  (I have no idea if this is actual rate).

- England out produced Germany in factor of two in the production of fighters (real number is more than twice).
"Production of the Me109 (190 per month) was about one-half the British production rate for the Spitfire and Hurricane."

- the RAF could maintain it's frontline strenght and still have some reserves left for several weeks of fighting at this rate.
"By using replacement aircraft (from repairs and storage) Fighter Command managed, until 1 September, to keep frontline strength at about the same levels as were available at the end of July."
"But, those reserves had dwindled from 518 Spitfires and Hurricanes (in maintenance and storage) on 6 July, to only 292 by 7 September."

- the LW could not maintain it's strenght ie was running out of reserves.
"Reserves were sufficient to keep most fighter units at 80 percent strength and bombers at 86 percent."

Basicly the LW had no resources to win BoB despite what ever strategy they used as Nashwan allready noted (or where are those reserves?).  Nothing indicates that the he quality of the pilots in the RAF did reduce much, actually during September they generally reached better than 1:1 ratio (mostly much better).

The main difference if compared to spring 1944 is that the allies had resources then. Still the LW fought hard, an often refered claim is that the LW lost about 1000 fighter pilots KIA/MIA between January and May 1944 in the defence of the Reich. Suprisingly this about same number as heavy bomber losses to enemy fighters at same period. And as noted earlier, there appear to be no big changes in the activity of the LW until autumn.

gripen

Offline Sway

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #361 on: February 05, 2004, 03:47:45 PM »
I thought you might have got booted for those comments, just checking... :D

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #362 on: February 05, 2004, 07:31:59 PM »
Gripen,

Since you insist on pedaling half truths.  Lets examine some key paragraphs keeping them in context.

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ww2/batlbrit.pdf

You say the RAF could have sustained it's losses and the LW could not have kept up the pressure.

Lets examine the Order of Battle:

"On 1 August RAF Fighter Command
strength stood at 570 Hurricanes and
Spitfires (two- thirds of these were
Hurricanes), and of the total only 367 were
operational. Thus, excluding the less
capable types, Blenheims, Defiants,
Gladiators, and so forth, the German
Me109s outnumbered the British forces by
almost two to one (367 versus 702). British
defenses also included some 1,200 heavy
and 650 light antiaircraft pieces. And,
although the Germans considered these
insufficient for the defensive task, antiaircraft
fire would account for about 12 percent of the
German losses in the coming battles."

This is the Strength of RAF FIGHTER COMMAND.  The entire RAF fighter force.  Including the areas the LW could not overfly to the North/West of England.

"GERMAN AIRCRAFT AVAILABILITY
10 AUGUST 1940
The total force available on 10 August
was 3,196 aircraft, with 2,485 operational.

Luftflotte 5:
138 He111 and Ju88 (123 operational)
37 Me110 (34)
Luftflotten 2 and 3:
406 Ju87 (316)
282 Me110 (227)
813 Me109 (702)"

This is the LW forces involved in the BoB.  Now there are 2 other Luftflottes the LW is not using.  They are holding down the frontiers of the Riech which is not at war any place else except England in August '40.  Check out the appendix in Lund's article under Order of Battle.


Now lets look at losses, ability to replace Aircraft, and pilots.

"Between 8 August and 6
September, 657 fighters had been lost. By
using replacement aircraft (from repairs and
storage) Fighter Command managed, until 1
September, to keep frontline strength at
about the same levels as were available at
the end of July. But, those reserves had
dwindled from 518 Spitfires and Hurricanes
(in maintenance and storage) on 6 July, to
only 292 by 7 September."

The RAF's  Entire fighter force reserves are down to 292 planes.  Pretty low. Now lets look at the RAF's ability to replace those reserves and keep it's frontline strength up.

"British production figures were no
more encouraging. In the last week of
August, for example, only 91 Spitfire and
Hurricanes were produced while losses
reached 137 destroyed and 11 seriously
damaged. With losses at these rates,
Fighter Command estimated that reserves
would be exhausted in three weeks followed
by steady depletion of the frontline
squadrons. This, of course, would be
accelerated if the Luftwaffe could
successfully knock out critical production
facilities."

So by the end of September '40 IF the LW kept it's current strategy the RAF would be running on empty with nothing to replace it's losses OF JUST PLANES.

Let's look at the RAF's ability to replace it's pilots.

"The critical problem faced
by Fighter Command was the loss of
trained fighter pilots. In phase one of the
campaign (8 to 18 August), the RAF lost
154 pilots (killed, seriously wounded or
missing). Only 63 new fighter pilots were
available from the training schools for the
same period. During phase two, 24 August
to 1 September, the figures were even
worse as losses reached 231 pilots, or
about 20 percent of the total combat
strength of the command! Combat strength
in the month of August decreased by
almost one-third, from 1,434 to 1,023. The
squadron average fell from 26 to 16
operational pilots. Naturally, combat
experience was similarly reduced.

In July and August, roughly onefourth
of the squadron leaders and one-third of
the flight leaders had been killed or removed
from flying due to injuries. Experienced pilots
numbered no more than 500—less than onehalf
of Fighter Command's strength—with the
remainder often having less than 20 hours
flying time on fighters. Daily sortie rates were
high and it was not uncommon for pilots to fly
three and four sorties a day. Stress was also
high. "One squadron, No. 85, based at
Croydon, had fourteen of its eighteen pilots
shot down in two weeks, two of them
twice."105"

So the RAF was losing pilots it could not replace AND just as importantly was losing it's experienced pilots who could fight.

So were does this all leave the RAF on 7 September '40?

"On the ground the persistence of the
German attacks was beginning to take effect.
The RAF was faced with the real possibility of
withdrawing 11 Group to bases north of
London. "Air superiority over Kent and
Essex, at least for a week or two, was in the
Luftwaffe's grasp; the aim of Adlerangrif was
near to being realized."106"

Now lets look at the LW's Three Luftflottes that were facing down the RAF:

First we will look at the LW's ability to replace it's lost Aircraft.


"Material losses were also high; in the
two week period beginning 24 August some
545 aircraft of all types were lost—200 more
than British losses for the same period. By 7
September, Luftflotten 2 and 3 fielded 623
operational Me 109s. This was a reduction of
about one-eighth the available strength at the
beginning of phase one."

They have lost ONE EIGHTH their original Strength of ME 109's...They went from 702 (just 109's) to 623.  

Now lets look at the RLM's ability to produce 109's.

"Production of the Me109 (190 per
month) was about one-half the British
production rate for the Spitfire and Hurricane.
Reserves were sufficient to keep most fighter
units at 80 percent strength and bombers at 86
percent. While losses of the bombers and
Me110s should be considered high, this too
was changing. "As the inexperience of the
R.A.F. squadrons increased, so also would
the success of the German bombers and twinengined
fighters, whose crews were, thus far at
least, more easily replaced with experienced
personnel."107 Therefore, the Luftwaffe ended
Phase two with a capability to field 623
operational Me109s against a force of only 350
RAF fighters."

So the LW was able to replace it planes and keep it's units at a combat effective level.

Now lets look at the LW's ability to replace it's pilot losses.

"The Luftwaffe, too, was experiencing
difficulties at this point in the campaign. Crew
fatigue was evident because the Luftwaffe did
not establish a system of pilot rotation as had
the RAF. Because of the requirement for
extensive escort duties most fighter pilots flew
two sorties a day for weeks at a time. Aircrew
losses were high, reaching five losses for each
British loss. This problem became so serious
Goering ordered that only one officer be allowed
to fly per aircraft, severely reducing the
experience level “airborne” within the bomber
forces. Only 97 percent of the pilot
requirement could be met for the serviceable
Me109s."
So the LW was down 3 percent of its 109 pilots and 1/8th of it's planes.  Again their are two other Luftflottes the LW has not drawn any replacements from.  The RAF's average fighter squadron has been reduced by 38 percent.  Seems the facts show the LW was winning AND could sustain the losses.  Sure the bombers were getting a nose bleed but there were 2 other Luftflottes to throw in the fray AND the RAF was fatally hemorrhaging the all important fighter pilot.
 
The single engine dayfighters were doing just fine in the LW.  Even at the 1:2 ratio. which would have begun to dramatically increase just as the USAAF ratio increased in '44 against the average inexperienced LW pilot, the LW could sustain it's losses.  Not an easy victory but a victory nonetheless.

But we all know the LW high command changed strategy and lost the fight.  Thank god.

To say the LW had no chance of winning the BoB is pure fantasy.  It was in fact a hard won victory for the RAF.  One that they almost didn't come out on top of...


Crumpp

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #363 on: February 05, 2004, 11:44:37 PM »
Crumpp,
Well, I quess you will soon earn so called "Barbi Award" :)

We are talking about situation in the end of the 2nd phase (beginning of september). England produced around 13 new fighter planes/day and there were still 292 planes in reserve. So with the loss rate of 2nd phase there were reserves and new production for at least for a month (to keep front line in same strenght). Please show where the LW reserves were? E. Lund is very clear, LW could maintain just 80% strenght in this very same moment; the one eight reduction tells us that the LW was allready out of reserves in the July.

Funny thing is that E. Lund claims that combat experience of the RAF reduced, in fact it actually increased all the time, absolutely and relatively to LW; again according to him self because he claims that 1:1 plane loss rate which means 2:1 pilot loss rate which favors RAF. And as you just quoted there were still plenty of pilots in reserve (front line strenght was much less than reserves). And as noted above, the RAF pilots did well in September  despite what ever losses. About LW it should be noted that Lund actually says that they did not have pilots even for that 80% strenght; Lund says "Only 97 percent of the pilot
requirement could be met for the serviceable
Me109s."

Nashwan all ready quoted LW strenght above. Tell me where the LW reserves where?

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #364 on: February 06, 2004, 06:36:51 AM »
That ratio you are claiming is wrong and an attempt at revisionist history.   The ratio of fighter to fighter losses according to Lund is as follows:

For Phase I of the BoB

 "The fighter ratio was
actually 1:2 (46 Me109s to 98 Spitfire and
Hurricane) and even lower still if the loss of 35
Me110s is added!"

Allow me to explain this data.  For every ONE Me-109 Shot down the RAF lost 2 Hurricanes or Spitfires.  Hardly a losing ratio especially when the Jagdwaffe outnumbered the RAF almost 2 to 1 inlcuding the RAF's fighter reserve.

For Phase II of the BoB

"Therefore, the Luftwaffe ended
Phase two with a capability to field 623
operational Me109s against a force of only 350
RAF fighters."

Now I'm not sure if the author means 350 TOTAL RAF fighters or 350 frontline.  Let's not split hairs and go with the best case for the RAF.  So with their "Reserves" the RAF at best equals the LW in single engine fighter strength.  However with a loss ratio of 2 RAF fighters for each LW fighter it is not going to take long for the LW to destroy Fighter Command.

To claim that experience was on the rise in the RAF, well frankly, is a stupid statement.  For a few individuals who survived sure.  But for the force as a whole, no way.  If YOUR claims held any truth then the LW in Feb '44 would have been the most experienced force in the world.  IF your claim holds true then why don't Armies just train a few people really really well and throw them in with hundreds of inexperienced ones with no training.  The majority can just learn by osmosis.

Now this is just Luftflotte 2, LF 3, and LF 5.  The LW still has in existence LF 1 and LF4 as well as quite a few "unaccounted for Jagdgeshwaders".  Their is almost NO data out there on the LW forces that were not directly involved in the BoB.  However it is unreasonable to believe they did not exist or that they were quickly formed in just a few months.  So by examining the Orders of Battle form both before and immediately after the BoB we can see some of these unaccounted for Units show up.  They were there and available.  The LW just didn't need them so they never became a factor.

All LW Fighter Wings:

http://www.feldgrau.com/jagdg.html

Granted a few where not in existence in Aug '40.  the Majority however where around.

And Luftflotte 1 and Luftflotte 4:

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/2072/LW_OBs.html

Without a doubt, using the reasonable man  standard, one can conclude that the LW had other forces to draw upon, they just were not a factor in the BoB.

No lets look at Lund's conclusions about the BoB:

"In the final analysis, perhaps the Germans
could have won. Perhaps, if they had
aggressively pursued either campaign
strategy they could have won, but that will
always remain conjecture."

Gosh that is exactly what I have been saying.

And in regards to "Big Week" and the rapid demise of the LW....

Here is an exerpt from an interview with Don Caldwell by Thrustmaster for their website:

http://us.thrustmaster.com/news/read.php3?newsid=217&skin=Hotas

 " ·   When Galland was given command of JG 26 during the Battle of Britain, he quickly transformed the unit from an average performer to one that the Luftwaffe itself rated as superior — objective proof that Galland was as good a leader as he always claimed to be.
·   JG 26 (and its partner JG 2) then maintained its ascendancy over the RAF for two full years, from mid-1941 to mid-1943. Two hundred Luftwaffe fighters were able to ‘hold the line” over the English Channel while the rest of the Luftwaffe moved East for the invasion of the USSR. RAF Fighter Command losses exceeded Jagdwaffe (Luftwaffe fighter arm) losses by a factor of about 4 to 1. The reason this was such a surprise to me is that the RAF over claimed by about this same factor, 4 to 1, and maintained then and now that the results of their Non-Stop Offensive were a draw.
·   The Luftwaffe’s loss of control of the air over Germany and the western occupied zone was sudden and irrevocable, and can be dated precisely to one month, February 1944, and even to a single week, “Big Week”, which had been dismissed by revisionist historians as only an Allied propaganda victory.
·   Although their commanders knew that the war was lost, JG 26 fought constantly over the Invasion Front and on the retreat through Germany up until the cease-fire on 4 May 1945 ended the fighting on Montgomery’s front. The Jagdwaffe was so badly outnumbered that its efforts were barely noticed by the Allies, but the German pilots continued to fight and die on every day that the weather permitted them to take off."

Crumpp

Offline MiloMorai

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #365 on: February 06, 2004, 07:51:23 AM »
" · JG 26 (and its partner JG 2) then maintained its ascendancy over the RAF for two full years, from mid-1941 to mid-1943. Two hundred Luftwaffe fighters were able to ‘hold the line” over the English Channel"

Is that why RAF units saw no LW a/c on some Ramrods, Rhubabs,....,  or if they did, the LW did not come near the RAF a/c since the LW was so outnumbered, interesting.:eek:

The RAF in BoB did not stay back because its sections or squadrons were out numbered.

............................. ..............
Big Week operations

SUNDAY, 20 FEBRUARY 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):

Mission 226: The Eighth Air Force begins "Big Week," attacks on German aircraft plants and airfields. For the first time, over 1,000 bombers are dispatched; 21 bombers and 4 fighters are lost hitting 3 areas in Germany, i.e.:

   1. 417 B-17s are dispatched to Leipzig/Mockau Airfield, and aviation industry targets at Heiterblick and Abnaundorf; 239 hit the primary targets, 37 hit Bernburg, 44 hit Oschersleben and 20 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 14-5-6 Luftwaffe aircraft; 7 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 161 damaged; casualties are 7 KIA, 17 WIA and 72 MIA.
   2. 314 B-17s are dispatched to the Tutow Airfield; 105 hit the primary and immediate area, 76 hit Rostock and 115 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 15-15-10 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 37 damaged; casualties are 3 KIA and 60 MIA.
   3. 272 B-24s are dispatched to aviation industry targets at Brunswick, Wilhelmtor and Neupetritor; 76 hit the primary, 87 hit Gotha, 13 hit Oschersleben, 58 hit Helmstedt and 10 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 36-13-13 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-24s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 37 damaged; casualties are 10 KIA, 10 WIA and 77 MIA.

Missions 1 and 3 above are escorted by 94 P-38s, 668 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 73 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; they claim 61-7-37 Luftwaffe aircraft; 1 P-38, 2 P-47s and 1 P-51 is lost, 2 P-47s are damaged beyond repair and 4 aircraft are damaged; casualties are 4 MIA. Mission 227: 4 of 5 B-17s drop 200 bundles of leaflets on Tours, Nantes, Brest and Lorient, France at 2123-2200 hours without loss.

MONDAY, 21 FEBRUARY 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):

Mission 228: "Big Week" continues with 3 areas in Germany targetted with the loss of 16 bombers and 5 fighters:

   1. 336 B-17s are dispatched to the Gutersioh, Lippstadt and Werl Airfields; because of thick overcast, 285 hit Achmer, Hopsten, Rheine, Diepholz, Quakenbruck and Bramsche Airfields and the marshalling yards at Coevorden and Lingen; they claim 12-5-8 Luftwaffe aircraft; 8 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 63 damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 13 WIA and 75 MIA.
   2. 281 B-17s are dispatched to Diepholz Airfield and Brunswick; 175 hit the primaries and 88 hit Alhorn and Verden Airfields and Hannover; they claim 2-5-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 5 B-17s are lost, 3 damaged beyond repair and 36 damaged; casualties are 20 KIA, 4 WIA and 57 MIA.
   3. 244 B-24s are dispatched to Achmer and Handorf Airfields; 11 hit Achmer Airfield and 203 hit Diepholz, Verden and Hesepe Airfields and Lingen; they claim 5-6-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 6 damaged; casualties are 3 WIA and 31 MIA.

Escort for Mission 228 is provided by 69 P-38s, 542 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 68 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 0-1-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; the P-47s claim 19-3-14 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-47s are lost, 2 are damaged beyond repair, 3 are damaged and 2 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim 14-1-4 Luftwaffe aircraft, 3 P-51s are lost and the pilots are MIA.

Mission 229: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Rouen, Caen, Paris and Amiens, France at 2215-2327 hours without loss.

TUESDAY, 22 FEBRUARY 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):

HQ VIII Bomber Command is redesignated as HQ, Eighth Air Force. Mission 230: "Big Week" continues with 799 aircraft dispatched against German aviation and Luftwaffe airfields; 41 bombers and 11 fighters are lost.

   1. 289 B-17s are dispatched against aviation industry targets at Aschersleben (34 bomb), Bernburg (47 bomb) and Halberstadt (18 bomb) in conjunction with a Fifteenth Air Force raid on Regensburg, Germany; 32 hit Bunde, 19 hit Wernegerode, 15 hit Magdeburg, 9 hit Marburg and 7 hit other targets of opportunity; they claim 32-18-17 Luftwaffe aircraft; 38 B-17s are lost, 4 damaged beyond repair and 141 damaged; casualties are 35 KIA, 30 WIA and 367 MIA.
   2. 333 B-17s are dispatched to Schweinfurt but severe weather prevents aircraft from forming properly and they are forced to abandon the mission prior to crossing the enemy coast; 2 B-17s are damaged.
   3. 177 B-24s are dispatched but they are recalled when 100 miles (160 km) inland; since they were over Germany, they sought targets of opportunity but strong winds drove the bombers over The Netherlands and their bombs hit Enschede, Arnhem, Nijmegen and Deventer; they claim 2-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft; 3 B-24s are lost and 3 damaged; casualties are 30 MIA.

These missions are escorted by 67 P-38s, 535 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s, and 57 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair and 6 are damaged; the P-47s claim 39-6-15 Luftwaffe aircraft, 8 P-47s are lost and 12 damaged, 8 pilots are MIA; the P-51s claim 19-1-10 Luftwaffe aircraft, 3 P-51s are lost and 3 damaged, 3 pilot are MIA.

THURSDAY, 24 FEBRUARY 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):

Missions 237, 238 and 239 are flown today against targets in France; 7 B-17s are lost. Heavy clouds cause over half the bombers dispatched to return without bombing.

Mission 237: 49 of 81 B-24s hit the Ecalles sur Buchy V-weapon sites; 1 B-24 is damaged.

Escort is provided by 61 P-47s.

Mission 238: 258 B-17s are dispatched against V-weapon sites in the Pas de Calais; 109 hit the primary target, 10 hit a road junction E of Yerville, 7 hit a rail siding SW of Abbeville and 6 hit targets of opportunity; 7 B-17s are lost and 75 damaged; casualties are 5 WIA and 63 MIA.

Escort is provided by 81 P-38s, 94 P-47s and 22 P-51s; 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; the P-51s claim 1-0-0 Luftwaffe aircraft on the ground.

Mission 239: 5 of 5 B-17s drop 250 bundles of leaflets on Amiens, Rennes, Paris, Rouen and Le Mans, France at 2023-2055 hours without loss.

FRIDAY, 25 FEBRUARY 1944

STRATEGIC OPERATIONS (Eighth Air Force):

Mission 235: In the final "Big Week" mission, 4 targets in Germany are hit; 31 bombers and 3 fighters are lost.

   1. 268 B-17s are dispatched to aviation industry targets at Augsburg and the industrial area at Stuttgart; 196 hit Augsburg and targets of opportunity and 50 hit Stuttgart; they claim 8-4-4 Luftwaffe aircraft; 13 B-17s are lost and 172 damaged; casualties are 12 WIA and 130 MIA.
   2. 267 of 290 B-17s hit aviation industry targets at Regensburg and targets of opportunity; they claim 13-1-7 Luftwaffe aircraft; 12 B-17s are lost, 1 damaged beyond repair and 82 damaged; casualties are 4 KIA, 12 WIA and 110 MIA.
   3. 172 of 196 B-24s hit aviation industry targets at Furth and targets of opportunity; they claim 2-2-2 Luftwaffe aircraft; 6 B-24s are lost, 2 damaged beyond repair and 44 damaged; casualties are 2 WIA and 61 MIA.

Escort is provided by 73 P-38s, 687 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-47s and 139 Eighth and Ninth Air Force P-51s; the P-38s claim 1-2-0 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-38 is damaged beyond repair; the P-47s claim 13-2-10 Luftwaffe aircraft, 1 P-47 is lost and 6 damaged, 1 pilot is MIA; the P-51s claim 12-0-3 Luftwaffe aircraft, 2 P-51s are lost and 1 damaged beyond repair, 2 pilots are MIA.



All know how exagerated were the claims of the 8th AF bomber gunners.

http://hometown.aol.com/jlowry3402/feb44.html

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #366 on: February 06, 2004, 08:18:40 AM »
Crumpp,
Please count the planes of the RAF here. It gives you daily numbers for hole lenght of the BoB. Basicly E. Lund uses numbers which happen to support his agenda and therefore his statements tend to contradict each other as pointed out several times above by me and Nashwan and others. And as you admit above, even you don't know what he means so please don't try to say that you explain the data.

The case is very simply; even during the 2nd phase the LW did not shoot down enough RAF planes down to bring RAF down (the reserves and production were enough). The Fighter command refused to fight with all available power and the LW was forced to change strategy. And as even E. lund shows, the LW was running out of pilots and planes. All this is discused above thoroughly.

As Nashwan wrote:

"Phase 2 ended on the 7th Sept. By his own admission, the RAF still had 292 Spits and Hurris in storage at this point.

Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 7th September 1940

Spitfire - 223
Hurricane - 398
Total = 621 (and this doesn't include the reserves)"

Based on results during September it's  clear that relative combat experience of the RAF if compared to LW increased.

gripen
« Last Edit: February 06, 2004, 08:31:48 AM by gripen »

Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #367 on: February 06, 2004, 09:35:44 AM »
That site corresponds to Lund's numbers almost exactly.  It does include the reserves.  Remember Dowding threw the RAF reserves into the battle.  From July on the RAF reserves were being used to keep up the frontline strength.  That is the point.  The RAF Reserves were within weeks of being gone...This is the RAF's OWN assesment.

The RAF on their own site list's the claims made each day.  Look at those numbers.   The actual numbers of "destroyed" planes includes ALL LW planes, both fighters and bombers and is roughly half of the number of planes claimed.  The claims include "damaged" LW planes.  Many which flew back were repaired and reentered the fight.  When you cross reference the actual casualties like Lund has done you see the results.  Lund does not quote LW claims.  He quotes RAF/LW planes destroyed by examining each AF's own loss records.

Same thing Don Caldwell does in his assesment of "Big Week".  This was it doesn't matter that each force "overclaimed".  

Crumpp

Offline Nashwan

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #368 on: February 06, 2004, 12:00:07 PM »
Quote
That site corresponds to Lund's numbers almost exactly. It does include the reserves.


It doesn't include the reserves.

"On 1st September there were 701 operational aircraft and on 6th September the figure was 738, with 256 in stores ready for immediate despatch"

Overy, the battle


6th September

Operational squadrons
Spitfire 19
Hurricane 32

Established strength
Spitfires 304
Hurricanes 512

Actual strength
Spitfires 304
Hurricanes 512

Serviceable reserve
Spitfires 41
Hurricanes 183

The Battle of Britain, Richard Townshend Bickers

Now, let's look at what figures the RAF site gives.

Serviceable aircraft, Spits and Hurris,

24th August 646

30th August 644

5th september 636

If these numbers include the reserves, then the RAF was not even losing strength from the reserves.

Those figures for the RAf site are serviceable aircraft with the squadrons, not including the reserves. To suggest otherwise is not only wrong, it implies the RAf was winning by a bigger amount than anybody has claimed.

Quote
Remember Dowding threw the RAF reserves into the battle.


Park, commanding 11 group, not Dowding. And by his reserves he means committed all the squadrons in 11 group, not aircraft from storage depots. There is a huge difference betweem tactical reserves and reserves held in storage.

Quote
The RAF on their own site list's the claims made each day. Look at those numbers. The actual numbers of "destroyed" planes includes ALL LW planes, both fighters and bombers and is roughly half of the number of planes claimed. The claims include "damaged" LW planes. Many which flew back were repaired and reentered the fight. When you cross reference the actual casualties like Lund has done you see the results. Lund does not quote LW claims. He quotes RAF/LW planes destroyed by examining each AF's own loss records.


Lund does, in places, quote LW claims. He says the RAF lost 68 aircraft in one day, about twice the highest figure for any real day. He also seems to be ignoring RAF actual strength and basing it more on LW intelligence assesments. Certainly his figure of 350 operational Hurris and Spits is closer to the Luftwaffe's assesment of 300 than the RAF's actual 800 or so (600 - 650 is a serviceable figure, not operational).

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #369 on: February 06, 2004, 12:29:03 PM »
Crumpp,
Dowding never "threw" reserves to combat, the squadrons got replacements when needed. As noted above there were over 50 RAF squadrons in combat, 12 planes each (possibly more). That is about 600 and the combat strenght stayed around 600 through whole critical period. Shortly, nothing indicates that RAF was running out planes nor that there were no reserves left. Maybe I should cut and paste answers from above, all this is allready discussed.

But where are the LW reserves? So far you have not brought in any data on LW reserves despite requested (actually noone have), basicly you should prove it or shut up. According to Lund the LW could keep just 80% strenght and they have pilots for 97% of them (as noted several times). Again it should be also noted that Lund claims 1:1 ratio for 2nd phase and even his numbers show that the RAF had more pilots and twice production of fighters. In addition the RAF repair units did good work and around 35% of the replacement aircraft were repaired (according to Wood & Dempster).

gripen

Offline Guppy35

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #370 on: February 06, 2004, 12:48:53 PM »
I keep wondering why no one has brought up the possible impact on "Ultra' during the B of B.  I know it's open for debate but certainly that gave the British an advantage.

And Crumpp, I'm with ya on the 1944 Allies having Air superiority and I'm with gripen on the B of B.  It got close for a bit, but I don't believe the LW was ever going to be in a position to win it.

Fighters lacked the range, and the bombers, designed for ground support just weren't enough to carry out a strategic campaign.

I got to be good friends with one of those 20 hour Spit pilots who joined 266 Squadron in August 1940.  While they were busy trying to stay alive, he doesn't ever recall a time where they had a doubt they weren't going to win(for lack of a better word) the battle.

I think it's the danger in getting too caught up in statistics.  They don't tell the whole story and can be manipulated enough to try and prove a point.

Eisenhower in a jeep on the beach in Normandy telling his kid he's got air supremacy, carries a lot more weight with me then a stat that says so many LW planes were able to fly.  Ike knew how the war was going and had a feel for the situation.

The B of B pilot was there and able to get a feel for how his commanders were reacting, how his fellow pilots were reacting and a sense of the time he was flying in.

Coulda, shoulda, woulda's are exactly that regardless of the numbers.

Dan/Slack
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #371 on: February 06, 2004, 12:51:03 PM »
It's been proven?  Did you not read it?  Do you need me to spell it out AGAIN.  YOU are the one who seems to think that "reserves" being used in a battle is not a big deal.  There is a reason why ALL militaries keep them.  When things get desperate you use your reserves.

Your oblivious to your own data.  EVEN THE RAF SAYS SEPTEMBER OF '40 WAS DEPERATE AND THEY WERE WITHIN WEEKS OF LOSING.  So why would you come around 60 years later and tell them they were not?

Do you not see the numbers given by the RAF?  Yes the Luftwaffe was at 80 percent without using reserves.  The RAF was at 50 percent unit strength until the reserves were thrown in?  Just how hard is that to understand?  The RAF had NO more to give.  IF the LW didn't use any other pilots and lost another 20 percent...The LW would be at 60 percent and the RAF at 50 percent.  Same loss ratio continues and the LW is at 40 percent and the RAF is at 0.  End of story.  This is using YOUR screwed up simplistic reasoning.

Quoting your site for 07 Sept. '40:

 "During engagements with the enemy, our fighters destroyed 74 enemy aircraft (plus 34 probable and 33 Damaged). Our casualties amounted to 27 aircraft of which 14 pilots killed or missing."

74 bombers, fighters, paper airplanes??  AGAIN THESE ARE THE RAF's "claims" and have no validity until compared with the LW actual losses.  Otherwise your doing the same thing the LW did...your down to the last spitfire real quick.  
If the RAF maintained the ratio they claimed the BoB would have been over in a matter of weeks.

As for the LW reserves,  that has been proven.  You need to examine the data.

Crumpp

Offline gripen

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #372 on: February 06, 2004, 01:44:39 PM »
Guppy 35,
Yeah, one of the main problems of the LW during BoB was that it was a tactical air force trying to do work of a strategic air force. This is a principal difference if compared to spring 1944 and even then the LW was still mostly an tactical air force.

Crumpp,
It's well documented that Dowding thought that the loss rate during the end of august was untolerable. From hindsight we know that the RAF could sustain that kind of losses longer than LW simply because they had more resources.

So where are the LW reserves?

gripen

Offline Crumpp

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #373 on: February 06, 2004, 02:27:59 PM »
Come on,

No historian that examines the loss records and not the claim records is screaming the LW didn't have the strength to win in 'Sept '40.  At least None that i have been able to find.  Every account I have of the BoB backs up the fact that things were desperate.  Hard fighting on the part of the RAF and mistakes on the LW's part won the battle.  

To quote sources that do not use the Actual loss data for each Air Force is to just further muddle the picture and only supports a revisionist argument.

The reserves were there. In the form of Luftflotte 1 and 4 and the other unaccounted for JG's.

Gripen, you are attempting to place goals and restrictions on the event that did not exist.  The LW stated goal of Air Supremacy over South Eastern England is not the same as wiping out the RAF.  That could only be accomplished once an invasion took place.  The LW knew this and total destruction of the RAF was not one of their goals in the BoB.  This is clearly stated in Lund's site.

Crumpp

Offline Angus

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Spitfire IX overmodeled??
« Reply #374 on: February 06, 2004, 03:03:54 PM »
Let me give you my view on this.
I belive the LW could have "won" the BoB. However that would have required better decisions on their side along with worse decisions on the RAF side.
Lw would have needed to give the Fighters a better chance as a harassing force, and maintaining full strength on the airfield offensive. RAF  would have to have made the mistake of meeting them steadily from the foremost airfields.
The RAF could also have won more decisively. They made mistakes regarding formations, they were keeping too big units too near the front and so on.
Anyway, my view is that the RAF won by some margin. LW could have "won", but not quickly enough for Germany to mount a successful invasion. RAF could also have drawn back inland to relative safety for the German fighters.
The Brits were already on the go for a total war with a much more realistic production plans, both for planes and pilots. Only a year or so from the BoB their force had become stronger than the LW.
So what is there to argue about?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)