Spitfire IX overmodeled??

[Crumpp]

Angus I define victory as the LW being able to meet it's stated Goal in the BoB.

1.  Air Superiority over Southern England to facilitate and invasion.

2.  Complete and total destruction of the RAF was recognized as an impossibility by the LW in it's initial assessment of the RAF.  This would have to wait until after German forces landed on the island.

Again Gripen you've given a buch of opinion and innuendo but no hard facts.  Simply quote were ANY historian, Museum or Air Force doctrine agrees with your assesment that the LW had NO CHANCE of meeting it's above stated goal.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

IWM: Basicly this all is allready known, during the 2nd phase amount of reserves decreased but the RAF still had reserves for weeks at same rate. There is nothing which supports your arguments on LW strenght and reserves.

Yeah they had 3 weeks...Whew!! Your absolutely right 3 weeks worth is Loooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnng time.

Lund: As noted several times, his conclusions are based on false numbers on the RAF strenght (possibly on purpose).

Your and Nashwad's opinion.  Please post a link that says Lund has bad numbers.

Retrosellers: This is actually a shopping site with no value as a source. Desperate attempt IMHO.

More valuable opinion than yours, at least they have an economic expertise in the subject.

RAF site: Just check numbers on daily reports during 2nd phase from the very same site; the Fighter command could keep strenght through 2nd phase. And note that also LW lost large amount of planes during BoF.

Ummmm YEAH! Good point, guess I could also post the LW claims.  According to them the RAF was down to 300 planes in a week.....

Overall nothing new. Please show us numbers on the LW reserves.

Already done that, Gripen.  Over 2000 planes in Luftflotte 1 and 4.  Wonder were they got all those planes for Barbarossa?  Must have had those pilot instructors and factory workers burning the midnight oil.....

Please just quote a site and post a link that draws your conclusion about the BoB from anywhere.

Crumpp

[MiloMorai]

The Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
13 Aug 40


Aircraft
Unit Airbase Type Strength Svcble
Luftflotte 2
I. Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 1 Amiens-Glisy He 111H 4 4
I/KG 1 Montdidier 27 23
II/KG 1 Amiens-Glisy 31 29
III/KG 1 Rosières-en-Santerre 32 15
Stab/KG 76 Cormeilles-en-Vexin Do 17Z 5 5
I/KG 76 Beauvais-Tille 29 29
II/KG 76 Creil Ju 88A 36 28
III/KG 76 Cormeilles-en-Vexin Do 17Z 32 19
Lehrstaffel 11 7
Stab, I, III/KG 77 Laon Ju 88A 68 *
II/KG 77 Asch-Nord 38 *
II. Fliegerkorps
Stab, II/KG 2 St. Lèger Do 17Z 42 35
I/KG 2 Epinoy 43 27
III/KG 2 Cambrai-Sd 34 32
Stab, I/KG 3 Le Culot 43 31
II/KG 3 Antwerpen-Deurne 35 32
III/KG 3 St. Trond 30 25
I, II, III/KG 53 Lille-Nord He 111H 94 67
II/StG 1 Pas-de-Calais Ju 87B 38 30
IV (St.)/LG 1 Tramecourt 36 28
ErprGr 210 Calais-Marck Bf 109E-4B 10 9
Bf 110C-6 5 4
Bf 110D-0 21 17
9. Fliegerdivision
Stab/KG 4 Soesterburg He 111P 6 5
I/KG 4 He 111H 30 12
II/KG 4 Eindhoven He 111P 31 25
III/KG 4 Amsterdam-Schipol Ju 88A 35 23
Stab/KG 40 Brest-Guipavas 1 1
I/KG 40 Fw 200C 9 3
KGr 100 Vannes He 111H-1/3 41 19
KGr 126 Marx? He 111H 34 8
Jafü 2
Stab/JG 3 Wierre au Bois Bf 109E 3 3
I/JG 3 Grandvilliers 33 32
II/JG 3 Samer 29 22
III/JG 3 Desvres, Le Touquet 29 29
Stab, I/JG 26 Audembert 42 38
II/JG 26 Marquise-Ost 39 35
III/JG 26 Caffiers 40 38
Stab/JG 51 Wissant 4 4
I/JG 51 Pihen bei Calais 32 32
II/JG 51 Marquise-West 33 33
III/JG 51 St. Omer-Clairmarais 32 30
Stab, I/JG 52 Coquelles 42 34
II/JG 52 Peuplingues 39 32
III/JG 52 Zerbst 31 11
Stab, I/JG 54 Campagne-les-Guines 38 26
II/JG 54 Hermelingen 36 32
III/JG 54 Guines-en-Calais 42 40
Stab/ZG 26 Lille Bf 110C 3 3
I/ZG 26 Yvrench, St. Omer 39 33
II/ZG 26 Crècy, St. Omer 37 32
III/ZG 26 Barly, Arques 35 24
Nachtjagd-Division
Stab/NJG 1 Dusseldorf, Deelen Bf 110B? 3 3
I/NJG 1 Bönninghardt 4 3
Bf 110C 30 19
II/NJG 1 Dusseldorf Ju 88C-2 11 4
Do 17Z-10 7 6
Do 17Z-7 3 3
III/NJG 1 Köln-Ostheim Bf 110C 13 4
Bf 109D 3 1
Bf 109E 17 16
Luftflotte 3
VIII. Fliegerkorps
Stab, III/StG 1 Angers Ju 87B 41 28
Do 17M 2 1
I/StG 1 Ju 87R 39 27
Stab, I/StG 2 St. Malo Ju 87B 39 32
Do 17M 5 4
II/StG 2 Lannion Ju 87R 37 31
Ju 87B 2 2
I, II, III/StG 77 Caen 115 98
Do 17M 4 1
II (Sch.)/LG 2 Böblingen Bf 109E 39 31
V (Z.)/LG 1 Caen Bf 110C 32 21
Bf 110D 11 8
V. Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 51 Paris-Orly Ju 88A 1 1
I/KG 51 Melun-Villaroche 30 21
II, III/KG 51 Etampes-Mondèsir 66 49
Stab, I/KG 54 Evreux 35 29
II/KG 54 St. André 31 23
Stab, III/KG 55 Villacoublay He 111P 42 34
I/KG 55 Dreux He 111H 21 18
He 111P 18 17
II/KG 55 Chartres He 111P 38 28
IV. Fliegerkorps
Stab/LG 1 Orlèans-Bricy Ju 88A 2 1
I (K.) , II (K.)/LG 1 67 47
He 111H 2 1
III (K.)/LG 1 Chateaudun Ju 88A 34 23
Stab, I/KG 27 Tours He 111P 20 13
He 111H 18 10
II/KG 27 Dinard-Bourges He 111P 26 18
He 111H 8 3
III/KG 27 Rennes He 111P 30 22
He 111D 1 1
KGr 806 Nantes, Caen-Carpiquet Ju 88A 33 22
Stab/StG 3 Bretigny Do 17M 1 0
Do 17Z 4 3
He 111H 2 1
Jafü 3
Stab, I, II/JG 2 Beaumont-le-Roger Bf 109E 73 63
III/JG 2 Le Havre 32 28
Stab/JG 27 Cherbourg-West 5 4
I/JG 27 Plumett 37 32
II/JG 27 Crèpon 40 32
III/JG 27 Arcques 39 32
Stab/JG 53 Cherbourg 6 6
I/JG 53 Rennes, Guernsey 39 37
II/JG 53 Dinan, Guernsey 38 34
III/JG 53 Brest, Sempy 38 35
Stab/ZG 2 Toussus-le-Noble Bf 110C 4 3
I/ZG 2 Caen-Carpiquet 41 35
II/ZG 2 Guyancourt 18 14
Bf 110D 23 20
Luftflotte 5
X Fliegerkorps
Stab/KG 26 Stavanger He 111P 6 6
I, III/KG 26 He 111H 56 55
Stab, I, III/KG 30 Aalborg Ju 88A 76 62
I/ZG 76 Stavanger-Forus Bf 110C 34 32
Stab/JG 77 ? Bf 109E 4 4
I/JG 77 ? 38 37
II/JG 77 Stavanger, Trondheim 43 38
KüFlGr 506 ? He 115B 8 7
He 115C 18 14
Seefliegerverbände
1./KüFlGr 106 Norderney He 115C 12 12
2./KüFlGr 106 Rantum Do 18 10 6
1., 2./KüFlGr 406 Stavanger 17 15
3./KüFlGr 406 Hörnum 10 10
KüFlGr 606 Brest Do 17Z 33 32
2./KüFlGr 906 Hörnum Do 18 9 8
TransOzeanSt. Brest Do 26 2 1
* KG 77 is converting to the Ju 88A

Strength Summary
Number Type Strength Svcble
42 1/3 Kampfgruppen 1482 1008
9 Stukagruppen 365 286
1 Schlachtgruppe 39 31
26 Jagdgruppen 976 853
9 Zerstrergruppen 244 189
3 Nachtjagdgruppen 91 59
14 Seefliegerstaffeln 240 125

[MiloMorai]

The Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain
7 Sept 1940
Courtesy of Johann Palsson



Aircraft
Unit Airbase Type Strength Svcble
Luftflotte 2
Long-Range Bombers
Stab/KG 1 Rosières-en-Santerre He 111 7 5
I/KG 1 Montdidier, Clairmont 36 22
II/KG 1 Montdidier, Nijmegen 36 23
III/KG 1 Rosières-en-Santerre Ju 88A 9 -
Stab/KG 2 St. Lèger Do 17Z 6 6
I/KG 2 Cambrai 19 12
II/KG 2 St. Lèger 31 20
III/KG 2 Cambrai-Süd 30 20
Stab/KG 3 Le Culot 6 5
I/KG 3 29 25
II/KG 3 Antwerp, Deurne 27 23
III/KG 3 St. Trond 28 19
Stab/KG 4 Soesterburg He 111 5 5
I/KG 4 37 16
II/KG 4 Eindhoven 37 30
III/KG 4 Amsterdam-Schipol Ju 88A 30 14
Stab/KG 26 Gilze-Rijen He 111 6 3
I/KG 26 Meirbeke, Courtrai 25 7
II/KG 26 Gilze-Rijen 26 7
Stab/KG 30 Brussels Ju 88A 1 1
I/KG 30 10 1
II/KG 30 Gilze-Rijen 30 24
Stab/KG 40 Bordeaux 2 1
Stab/KG 53 Lille-Nord He 111 5 3
I/KG 53 23 19
II/KG 53 29 7
III/KG 53 19 4
Stab/KG 76 Cormeilles-en-Vexin Do 17Z 6 3
I/KG 76 Beauvais-Tille 26 19
II/KG 76 Creil Ju 88A 27 21
III/KG 76 Cormeilles-en-Vexin Do 17Z 24 17
Stab/KG 77 Laon Ju 88A 1 1
I/KG 77 36 31
II/KG 77 Asch-Nord 32 25
III/KG 77 Laon 30 19
KGr 126 ? He 111 33 26
Dive-Bombers and Ground-Attack Aircraft
Stab/StG 1 St. Pol Ju 87, Do 17 7 5
II/StG 1 Pas-de-Calais Ju 87 43 29
Stab/StG 2 Tramecourt Ju 87, Do 17 11 9
II/StG 2 St. Omer/St. Trond Ju 87 27 22
IV (St.)/LG 1 Tramecourt 42 28
II (Sch.)/LG 2 St. Omer Bf 109E 33 27
Single-Engined Fighters
Stab/JG 1 Pas-de-Calais Bf 109E 4 3
Stab/JG 3 Pas-de-Calais 3 3
I/JG 3 23 14
II/JG 3 24 14
III/JG 3 25 23
Stab/JG 26 Pas-de-Calais 4 3
I/JG 26 27 20
II/JG 26 Northen France 32 28
III/JG 26 29 26
Stab/JG 27 Etaples 5 4
I/JG 27 33 27
II/JG 27 Montreuil 37 33
III/JG 27 Sempy 31 27
Stab/JG 51 St. Omer 5 4
I/JG 51 St. Omer, St. Inglevert 36 33
II/JG 51 22 13
III/JG 51 Pas-de-Calais 44 31
Stab/JG 52 Laon/Couvorn 2 1
I/JG 52 21 17
II/JG 52 Pas-de-Calais 28 23
III/JG 52 31 16
Stab/JG 53 Northen France 2 2
II/JG 53 Wissant 33 24
III/JG 53 Northen France 30 22
Stab/JG 54 South Holland 4 2
I/JG 54 28 23
II/JG 54 35 27
III/JG 54 29 23
I/JG 77 Northen France 42 40
Twin-Engined Fighters (Night-Fighters Excluded)
Stab/ZG 2 Toussous-le-Noble Bf 110 1 -
I/ZG 2 Amiens, Caen 20 10
II/ZG 2 Guyancourt/Caudran 28 10
Stab/ZG 26 ? 3 3
I/ZG 26 Abbeville, St. Omer 33 14
II/ZG 26 Crècy 25 17
III/ZG 26 Barly, Arques 25 17
V (Z.)/LG 1 Ligescourt, Alencon 23 19
ErprGr 210 Denain Bf 109E/Bf 110C/D 26 17
Long-Range Reconnaissance Aircraft
1(F)/22 Lille Do 17, Bf 110 13 9
1(F)/122 Holland Ju 88A 5 3
2(F)/122 Brussels/Melsbrock Ju 88A, He 111 10 9
3(F)/122 Eindhoven 11 11
4(F)/122 Brussels 13 9
Bf 110
5(F)/122 haute-Fontaine Ju 88A, He 111 3 3
Coastal Aircraft
1./KüFlGr 106 Brittany He 115 10 4
2./KüFlGr 106 Do 18 9 6
3./KüFlGr 106 Borkum He 115 9 6
Luftflotte 3
Long-Range Bombers
Stab/LG 1 Orlèans-Bricy Ju 88A 3 3
I/LG 1 27 13
II/LG 1 31 19
III/LG 1 Chateaudun 30 19
Stab/KG 27 Tours He 111 7 4
I/KG 27 35 13
II/KG 27 Dinard-Bourges 32 15
III/KG 27 Rennes 20 13
I/KG 40 Bordaux Fw 200 7 4
Stab/KG 51 Paris-Orly Ju 88A 1 -
I/KG 51 Melun-Villaroche 33 13
II/KG 51 Paris-Orly 34 17
III/KG 51 Etampes-Mondèsir 34 27
Stab/KG 54 Evreux 1 -
I/KG 54 30 18
II/KG 54 St. André 26 14
Stab/KG 55 Villacoublay He 111 6 6
I/KG 55 Dreux 27 20
II/KG 55 Chartres 30 22
III/KG 55 Villacoublay 25 20
KGr 100 Vannes He 111H 28 7
KGr 606 Brest, Cherbourg Do 17 33 29
KGr 806 Nantes, Caen-Carpiquet Ju 88A 27 18
Dive-Bombers
Stab/StG 3 Brittany Ju 87, Do 17 7 6
I/StG 3 Ju 87 37 34
Single-Engined Fighters
I/JG 53 Brittany Bf 109E 34 27
*Stab/JG 2 Beaumont-le-Roger 3 2
*I/JG 2 29 24
*II/JG 2 22 18
*III/JG 2 Le Havre 30 19
Twin-Engined Fighters (Night-Fighters Excluded)
Stab/ZG 76 ? Bf 110 2 2
II/ZG 76 Le Mans, Abbeville 27 12
III/ZG 76 Laval 19 8
Long-Range Reconnaissance Aircraft
7(F)/LG 2 ? Bf 110 14 9
4(F)/14 Normandy Bf 110, Do 17 12 9
3(F)/31 St. Brieuc 9 5
3(F)/121 North-West France Ju 88A, He 111 10 6
4(F)/121 Normandy Ju 88A, Do 17 13 5
1(F)/122 near Paris 10 7
2(F)/123 near Paris 10 8
3(F)/123 Buc 12 9
Luftflotte 5
Single-Engined Fighters
II/JG 77 South Norway Bf 109E 44 35
Long-Range Reconnaissance Aircraft
2(F)/22 Stavanger Do 17 9 5
3(F)/22 Stavanger 9 5
1(F)/120 Stavanger He 111, Ju 88A 13 2
1(F)/121 Stavanger, Aalborg Do 17 7 2
Coastal Aircraft
1/KüFlGr 506 Stavanger He 115 8 6
2/KüFlGr 506 Throndheim, Tromso 8 5
3/KüFlGr 506 Lista 8 6
* JG 2 Interchangeable between Luftflotten 2 and 3

Strength Summary
Number Type Strength Svcble
43 Kampfgruppen 1291 798
4 Stukagruppen 174 133
2 Schlachtgruppe 59 44
27 Jagdgruppen 831 658
8 Zerstörergruppen 206 112
18 Fernaufklärungsstaffeln 191 123
6 Seefliegerstaffeln 52 33

[gripen]

Crumpp,
The LW gave up BoB (ie realized that they have lost the battle) just about a week after the end of the 2nd phase, September 15th.

Regarding Lund's numbers. About strenght of the LW and Fighter Command in September 7th (end of the 2nd phase) Lund says (page 20):

"Therefore, the Luftwaffe ended Phase two with a capability to field 623 operational Me109s against a force of only 350 RAF fighters."

The RAF site:

"Fighter Command Serviceable Aircraft as at 0900 hours, 7th September 1940

    * Blenheim - 44
    * Spitfire - 223
    * Hurricane - 398
    * Defiant - 20
    * Gladiator - 9
    * Total - 694"

About the losses on August 18th Lund says(page 18):

"The highest total losses of the battle occurred on the 18th; 68 British and 69 German."

The Fighter command losses from the RAF (18th August):

"Own: 22 aircraft with 12 pilots safe."

These are not mine or Nashwan's words but direct quotes from Lund and RAF BoB calendar.

In the case of the Fighter command strenght in the end of the 2nd phase Lund's number is 56% of the real strenght (350 vs 621). In the case of the losses in August 18th Lund claims 300% higher number than real losses (68 vs 22). BTW all this has been pointed out several times but you appear to be not able to remember these.

The LW lost around 1200 planes in the BoF and the RAF lost around 1000 in the BoF (depending on source).

Please give us numbers on supposed Bf 109 reserves.

gripen

[MiloMorai]

13 Aug 40
Strength Summary
Number Type Strength Svcble
42 1/3 Kampfgruppen 1482 1008
9 Stukagruppen 365 286
1 Schlachtgruppe 39 31
26 Jagdgruppen 976 853
9 Zerstrergruppen 244 189
3 Nachtjagdgruppen 91 59
14 Seefliegerstaffeln 240 125


7 Sept 1940
Strength Summary
Number Type Strength Svcble
43 Kampfgruppen 1291 798
4 Stukagruppen 174 133
2 Schlachtgruppe 59 44
27 Jagdgruppen 831 658
8 Zerstörergruppen 206 112
18 Fernaufklärungsstaffeln 191 123
6 Seefliegerstaffeln 52 33

Looks like the LW had a hard time keeping its Gruppen up to strength by drawing from its reserves.

[Angus]

Excellent data MiloMorai

Anyway Crumpp:
"Angus I define victory as the LW being able to meet it's stated Goal in the BoB.

1. Air Superiority over Southern England to facilitate and invasion."

I presume that would mean to be able to suppress the RN enough well enough to launch a rather vulnerable invation fleet across the channel. Well, under much more favourable circumstances, the LW could not stop RN destroyers from docking at Dunkirk! So, this would have to mean a very complete victory.
Allright, given that definition, the LW was far from it at eagle's day, and even further a month later. BTW, RAF Bomber command, came away from the BoB with very little losses. RAF coastal command suffered some, but not so much. Those are included in most reports of RAF losses during the battle.
Both of those commands would definately have veen a vital factor in intercepting a possible seaborne invasion, while Fighter command was responsible for tackling with enemy aircraft.
So, Victory was never so close for the LW. Both sides seem to have mis-estimated each other and themselves. In todays environment and all access to the historical procedure we can look at and analyze this somewhat better than the people looking into those same things years ago.
What I can see is that the only way the LW could have won would have been by obtaining data from the future

[Crumpp]

Fine!

Again Just find me ONE site that makes those claims.  I will take ANY site.  

All you have to do is just quote their conclusions word for word an post a link.

You can't do it can you?


Again Gripen,

You need to be careful in quoting exact numbers.  Ask Don Caldwell.  In comparing Allied and LW records the numbers never lined up.  Sometime drastically.  It wasn't some conspiracy though at the heart of it.  Most of the time it was simple explaintions.  Take Schweinfurt for example.  Depending on the time of day the RLM reported almost 2/3rd's of its single engine day fighters out of action.  A great victory for the Allies.  That is until the next day's status and less than 10 percent were down.  The status included all fighter down for whatever maintenance.  They may have needed a patch or an oil change but were listed as unservicable in the status report.  By the next morning the crew chiefs got them back up.

With that in mind what time of day and when is Lunds status?  It may have been correct but for a short period of time or the RAF status may be correct but for just short period of time.  Instead of a snapshot of one day the whole time period of phase I and II should be examined.

Again please just post the conclusions about the time period we are talking about...

Coastal Command.....in 1940??!!??  Now there is a threat to your fleet!!:rofl

Crumpp

[gripen]

Crumpp,
The links to the RAF site are direct links to mentioned dates, anyone (even you) can check the numbers and compare them to Lund's. From the RAF site anyone can check that the Fighter command could keep around 600 fighters ready to fight throughout 2nd phase.

Terraine ("Righ of the Line", 1985) quotes a LW general Werner Kreipe (Chief of the OKL):

"Though the air battles over England were perhaps triump of skill and bravery so far as the German air crews were concerned, from strategic point of view it was a failure and contributed to our ultimate defeat. The decision to fight it marks a turning point in the history of the Second World War. The German Air Force was bled almost to death, and suffered losses which could never again be made good troughout the curse of the war."

gripen

[Crumpp]

"The German Air Force was bled almost to death, and suffered losses which could never again be made good troughout the curse of the war."

Perhaps in trained pilots and for the ENTIRE battle.  We are talking about Phase II, remember.  

Many would disagree with that statement.  Germany continued with its peacetime pilot training program well into late '42 early '43.  Numerically the Luftwaffe was actually stronger in December '44 than it was September '39.  The LW won Air Superiority over Russia for the first year and was able to grab local superiority over a battlefield until the last months of the war. It held the allies in the west off for another four years! I would hardly say it's back was broken in the BoB.

As for the RAF site numbers. In addition to the status pitfalls mentioned earlier you must keep in mind that is the numbers for the entire fighter strength of the RAF.  How many of those fighters are in the combat box and how many are holding the line in Northwestern England?  Since Lund only uses the LW strength of those fighters in the combat box it is only accurate to use the same standards for the RAF.
   
Again please post something that comes quotes your conclusions that it was unwinnable from the begining for the LW and provide a link.   I will take any site.

Crumpp

[Angus]

Crumpp: I mainly used the RAF site, the rest I have in books.
In case you missed it, here is the RAF site:
http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/bobhome.html

BTW,  Did you know that the last month of daylight raids was november, and by then the LW was getting spanked badly, losing close to 4 vs 1!!!
I'll dig up some sources and give you quotes and if you like ISBN numbers.
My great uncle was in Britain, learning how to fly while the BoB was at its height. He was stationed in Wales, then Scotland, and was in no way pushed unprepared into battle! His first encounter with the enemy was in September 1941!!!!

[gripen]

Crumpp,
Kreipe actually admits that even the decision to fight BoB was a mistake. The situation did not change much between September 7th and 15th. And statistics are clear in the September 7th: The RAF could keep the strenght and had plenty of planes and  pilots (even Lund admits this) while the LW could not keep strenght and did not have pilots even for all serviceable planes.

Lund does not specify combat box or what ever, same time he mentions fighter production so he certainly means all Fighter command. Shortly, Lund writes fiction just like you in the case of the Luftflotte 1 and 4.

Me and others have pointed out that the RAF had better situation than the LW in the September 7th. This is backed up with RAF numbers and supported also by Lund.

So far you have not bring in any numbers on the supposed LW reserves nor any relevant numbers which prove that the LW was winning in the end of the 2nd phase (Lund's numbers are false as pointed out several times).

gripen

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Crumpp
The LW won Air Superiority over Russia for the first year and was able to grab local superiority over a battlefield until the last months of the war. It held the allies in the west off for another four years! I would hardly say it's back was broken in the BoB.

 

Does this statement mean you have changed your mind about your claim the western Allies having air superiority over the LW in early '44?.

[Crumpp]

Ummmm MATH Milo-Moron!


44-40 = 4

So No I haven't changed the fact the Allies gained Air Superiority in March '44.  You still lost that one.

Crumpp

[Crumpp]

Although some of the Fighter Command claims of the time (I.e. numbers of German aircraft shot down etc.) have since been provd to be greatly exagerated on some days, it nevertheless does give a unique insight into the RAF's perspective of the Battle of Britain.

Yeah thanks for the link!

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/bobhome.html

Kind of blows your argument out of the water, Gripen.  We can see that both sides grossly overclaimed which puts the LW which had an intitial 2 to 1 advantage still firmly on top.

Again Please just post a LINK and QUOTE to any site which clearly concludes that the LW had no chance whatsoever of achieving it's stated goals in 1940.  Face it the LW could have done it but they blew it when they changed tactics.

Crumpp