Exploring P-38 agility

[Pongo]

38 is one of those planes. Someone hands you your bellybutton when they are in it so you take it up and cant do dick in the thing. Some guys just really know how to get the best out of it. Same as in the war I guess.
80% of my deaths in the 38 are due to compression.

[humble]

Originally posted by Bodhi
Guppy I suggest you follow your own advice and read up yourself....  Read the below excerpt from the after action report submitted by Capt. Edwin Weaver and Lt. Douglas Thropp, the only survivors of the flight of four P-38's.  FYI, Major Jack Rittmayer was also killed in this fight.

 

That is not mushing into the trees, that is the result of an accelerated stall and the following violent spin from too high of wing loading with the external tanks still present.  Knowing the 38 is a horrible ride when it departs, especially at low altitudes, McGuire never had the chance to recover.  His aircraft was last seen by Capt. Edwin Weaver (his wingman) as it exploded in the trees below the fight they were in.

Actually there is strong evidence that he was killed by a "trailer"...a japanese pilot reported making a pass on a 38 in this fight and pulling back up into the low cloud cover....he was never seen or reported in original after action reports. don't remember where I read this but report was considered accurate...obviously what actual damage he inflicted...and on what plane is not 100% certain...but he was a recognized ace and reported multiple strikes on the pass.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by humble
Actually there is strong evidence that he was killed by a "trailer"...a japanese pilot reported making a pass on a 38 in this fight and pulling back up into the low cloud cover....he was never seen or reported in original after action reports. don't remember where I read this but report was considered accurate...obviously what actual damage he inflicted...and on what plane is not 100% certain...but he was a recognized ace and reported multiple strikes on the pass.

Where did you see that info Humble?  I've never come across that story.  

From the stuff I have there were two Japanese planes, a Ki-43 Oscar flown by WO Akira Sugimoto and Sgt Mizunori Fukuda in a Ki-84.  Sugimoto in the Oscar was the one who got into it with the 4 38s with Fukuda coming to his aid, and in the process, seeing McGuire crash and then shooting down Rittmeyer.  Fukuda in turn was shot up by Weaver and hit 23 times, but was able to flee the scene.

Sugimoto in the Oscar was also badly shot up but managed a forced landing only to be killed by Filipino guerilla's as he exited his plane.

I would assume that the report you saw refers to Fukuda in his Ki-84 as he shot down Rittmeyer and survived to tell the tale.  But if there was a third Japanese plane, I'd never heard that before.  If you can remember where you saw it, I'd love to know where


Dan/Slack

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Guppy35

I would assume that the report you saw refers to Fukuda in his Ki-84 as he shot down Rittmeyer and survived to tell the tale.  But if there was a third Japanese plane, I'd never heard that before.  If you can remember where you saw it, I'd love to know where

McGuire's wreckage was examined and no damage was found relating to gunfire.  

Japanese combat claims, or action reports for that matter could generally be stored in the fiction section of most libraries. I have seen after action reports where the reported number of destroyed and damaged American aircraft was over-claimed by nearly an order of magnitude (6 destroyed, 3 damaged, where the claim was 52 destroyed and "many" damaged).

As it is, if no one saw this guy it was certainly because he wasn't there.....

My regards,

Widewing

[killnu]

bah, the 38 stinks.    
~S~

[Joker312]

Excellent post Widewing. Really enjoyed it. I have tried the manual trim option but find it to much of a high workload in a fight. I was wondering, do you manually trim while fighting or not?

Also, I suspect that only elevator and aileron trim would be important. Am I correct in this assumption?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

[killnu]

i personally never use manual trim, i leave combat trim on all the time.  i only use the flaps.  it has worked for me, i guess.  ive tried the manual trim but it only causes problems for me, probably because ive used combat trim so long.
~S~

[simshell]

i use trim for geting my butt of a dive when the controls have froze

but using them in combat has allways been hard for me

i find that the extra turn you get from using it bleeds speed and you hurt your speed very fast using trim for turning

the only plane im using trim alot for dogfights is the 109E-4

[Halo]

Perk the 38!  Perk the 38!  Perk the 38!

Oops, wrong thread.

Interesting report, Widewing.  Insights like yours help many of us better appreciate more rides and tactics.  Thanks.

[Ecliptik]

Manual trim is really not a lot of work in the 38.

Given the torqueless property of the 38, aileron and rudder trim never need to be touched except when damaged.   Only elevator trim is important.  

Simshell, if you're using it to attain better a turning radius you're using it wrong.  Flaps help you there, not trim.  If you were to yank the stick back so far that trim would help, you'd be stalling anyway.

Manual trim helps primarily in vertical manouevers.    Combat trim has the unwanted property of trimming your elevators up when you lose speed in a climb, which forces you to fight with your stick to maintain the line you want to take, and it makes accurate gunnery in this situation difficult.  Manual trim allows you to keep the tabs fixed in the position you want, so you can maintain very smooth control at low speed in the vertical.  

Try it.  Hammerheads, wing-overs, zoom climbing in general is much better with combat trim off.

[Bodhi]

Wanna know something really cool, I know where McGuire's 38's wreckage is....

[guttboy]

Widewing,

Great post on the 38.  Unfortunately it flies NOTHING like the P38J model from Air Warrior (ahh the glory days of relaxed realism...LOL).   I have been trying the P38L from AH over the past week or so.  Great Jabo machine.  Still learning the ins and outs of it...maybe you and I could go to DA and I could learn a few things about it.

The main reason I went to the 38 is Fester handed me my arse in a sling a couple of weeks ago and it pissed me off SOOOOO much I decided to learn how to dogfite in it.

Anyone willing to show me the ropes in the P38 ill be sure to bring the beer!!!!!:D

[Angus]

Tried that off-runway-loopie-thingie in a Spitfire Mk IX. Made it in first try, but with only 10 feet of ground clearance though:eek:

[Charon]

Wanna know something really cool, I know where McGuire's 38's wreckage is....

Where is it? Is it still in the jungle, or did somebody bring it out?

Charon

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Angus
Tried that off-runway-loopie-thingie in a Spitfire Mk IX. Made it in first try, but with only 10 feet of ground clearance though:eek:

Did you leave the landing down? The P-38 does it without retracting the gear, and it clears the ground by a much greater margin. I found that the Spitfire would dip a wing at the top of the loop, pushing it out of plane. With the P-38, you can do one after another, after another until you grow bored.

I watched some guy doing it in the TA the other day, except he didn't pull into the loop directly from lift-off... He would fly a bit longer, building more airspeed, before he pulled up into the loop.

Try it in the B5N Kate. That thing, although gutless, is the best aerobatic plane in the game.

One thing that really helps the P-38 in the DA is the use of the F3 view. Those big blind spots no longer exist. Furthermore, if you really want to go for maximum dweebness, it takes only a little practice to get proficient at shooting from the F3 view. Of course, this is available to everyone and every plane flying in the DA (a useful tool for self evaluation). Nonetheless, the P-38 benefits from it more than most.

My regards,

Widewing