Author Topic: Feature Request please HT - engine management  (Read 2893 times)

Offline Pyro

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2004, 05:27:21 PM »
I used to be of the school of thought that more engine management would be a good thing.  But as I looked into it more, I found that a lot of my beliefs about the subject were based on fallacies.  I think the desire for this is based on a couple of things.  The first is more immersion through realism.  That’s a good thing as long as it’s balanced.  Otherwise, it gets to be more like a poorly edited 3-hour movie that would have been better if it were only 2 hours long.  I think the second reason is because people want to be able to get an advantage for putting in extra work into learning something.  That’s not a bad thing either, but to do that just for the sake of it is counter to the first reason.

I think there’s a lot of assumptions made about he purpose of engine management and that’s what I would like people to specifically look at.

In the first post, Vulcan states “I like the fact that good engine management can give you an advantage in combat.”  I think that is an idea shared by many.  But is it true?  I have many books on the subject, but off the top of my head, I cannot think of a single account given where the pilot is tweaking his engine controls in combat to give him some perfect combination that results in an advantage.  On the contrary, I have discussed a wide range of subjects with vets and when I inquired about what they had to do engine-wise during combat, everybody I’ve asked has said that they just shoved everything on the throttle quadrant full forward until the fight was over.  I also get the feeling they consider it a dumb question and won’t ask about it anymore.  If anybody knows of combat accounts where the pilot is manipulating his engine other than through his throttle, please post them.

I think there are some who believe that a pilot should be able to pull more power if he knows how to manage his engine better.  I would like to see this belief quantified.  How is this extra power being developed?  If everything is pushed to the max, what exactly can you do to get more power?  Label the controls a la Spinal Tap?

So what is the real purpose of engine management in real life?  It primarily breaks down to two reasons.  Fuel efficiency and maintenance considerations.  Fuel efficiency should be obvious.  You will get a lot more range at a more efficient setting.  Maintenance considerations are there to extend engine life and time between overhauls.  People see a time limit on military power for a plane and assume that that means the engine will overheat or blow up if you run it longer than that and that’s not the case.  Is modeling it that way really more accurate?  We don’t model the maintenance considerations, you get a fresh plane each time out.  Hopefully, we’ll at least be able to take some stabs in that direction with ToD, but that’s not exactly something you can replicate to great effect.

You see a lot of calls for mixture control.  Why?  In most planes that we’re dealing with, there’s going to be two settings- auto-rich and auto-lean.  Below a certain setting, use auto-lean.  Above a certain setting, use auto-rich.  Does assigning a couple more keys and a cockpit indicator to that really add that much?  All it’s going to get you is better cruise efficiency on auto-lean and that can be modeled directly into the lower cruise settings.  

Contrary to what a lot of people think, we actually would like to see people use engine management.  But not in some contrived only-in-the-sim-world setup.  One of the main considerations for any WWII pilot was his fuel and we’ve always wanted that to be central in the game as well.  I just haven’t done a good job with that.  With the latest beta release, we’re really looking to get that where we’ve always wanted it to be.

Offline Crumpp

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2004, 05:53:42 PM »
Thanks for the Post Doug!


I would think that in combat a pilot would mainly be concerned with engine management in the form of getting the max out of his engine without overheating it.   I think IL2 does a great job in simulating this.  You really don't get much more performance out of your plane but just ignore the overheating warnings.  Start overheating in a fight and your are faced with a choice.  More drag (open the radiator more) or less power (reduce throttle).  You can reduce throttle and decrease prop RPM to maintain for a short period....

And I would like to see a difference between full power, full military power, and WEP.

Example for a USAAF pilot I believe would go something like:

Full power = throttel to the wire
Full Military Power = Break the wire, throtte to full forward

WEP - Water Methynol injection
          Supercharger stage 1 and 2 etc..


All are options that do help with immersion.

Offline Pyro

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2004, 06:31:31 PM »
Hi Crumpp,

Well my point is more that running Military is not necessarily going to cause you to overheat unless you're in a slow climb or something.

As to how the throttle would go on a USAAF plane, military would be at full throttle and WEP is beyond the gate after that whether that involves water injection or not.

The clearest explanation I've seen on the use of military power and the limitations imposed is in a P-51 pilot manual.  I'll just reprint it here-

USE OF TAKE-OFF (MILITARY) POWER

It is often asked what the consequences will be if the 5-minute limit at Take-off Power is exceeded.  Another frequent inquiry is how long a period must be allowed after the specified time limit has elapsed until Take-off Power can be used.  These questions are difficult to answer, since the time limit specified does not mean that engine damage will occur if the limit is exceeded.  Instead, the limit means that the total operating time at high power should be kept to a reasonable minimum in the interest of prolonging engine life.

It is generally accepted that high-power operation of an engine results in increased wear and necessitates more frequent overhaul than low-power operation.  However, it is apparent that a certain percentage of operating time must be at full power.  The engine manufacturer allows for this in qualification tests in which much of the running is done at Take-off Power to prove ability to withstand the resulting loads.  It is established in these runs that the engine will handle sustained high power without damage.  Nevertheless, it is still the aim of the manufacturer and to the best interest of the pilot to keep within reasonable values the amount of high-power time accumulated in the field.  The most satisfactory method for accomplishing this is to establish time limits that will keep pilots constantly aware of the desire to hold high-power periods to the shortest period that the flight plan will allow, so that the total accumulated time and resulting wear can be kept to a minimum.  How the time at high power is accumulated is of secondary importance; i.e., it is no worse from the standpoint of engine wear to operate at Take-off Power for one hour straight than it is to operate in twelve 5-minute stretches, provided engine temperatures and pressures are within limits.  In fact, the former procedure may even be preferable, as it eliminates temperature cycles which also promote engine wear.  Thus if flight conditions occasionally require exceeding time limits, this should not cause concern so long as constant effort is made to keep the over-all time at Take-off Power to the minimum practicable.

Another factor to be remembered in operating engines at high power is that full Take-off Power (3000 rpm and 61 in. Hg) is to be preferred over take-off rpm with reduced manifold pressure.  This procedure results in less engine wear for two reasons.  First, the higher resulting brake horsepower decreases the time required to obtain the objective of such high-power operation.  At take-off, for example, the use of full power decreases the time required to reach an altitude and airspeed where it is safe to reduce power and shortens the time required to reach the airspeed that will provide more favorable cooling.  Second, high rpm results in high loads on the reciprocating parts because of inertia forces.  As these loads are partially offset by the gas pressure in the cylinder, the higher cylinder pressures resulting from use of take-off manifold pressure gives lower net loads and less wear.  Sustained high rpm is a major cause of engine wear.  It requires more "rpm minutes" and "piston-ring miles" to take off with reduced manifold pressure.  In addition to the engine wear factor, taking off at reduced power is comparable to starting with approximately one-third of the runway behind the plane.  Therefore, full power should always be used on take-offs.

Offline Batz

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2004, 06:33:29 PM »
EDIT
 
I was posting at the same timne as Pyro. Instead of deleting my post I will leave it but I think Pyro answered it.


Why we need 110% throttle setting:
 
As an example

I will use the spit 5 because its boost was changed for AH2. But this could apply to all planes. I am just offerring these numbers as an example.

Spit V now has 18+lb boost for 5 min

9+lb for max climbing. I have seen 2 limits 30 min and 1 hr. I will let the experts determin which is right.

7+lb Max continous

Wouldn't it better if

110% = 18lb 5 min
108% = 16lb 5min
105% = 12lb 5 min
103% = 9lb 30 min or 1 hour (again I will defer to the experts)
100% = 7lb continous

Get rid of the "wep" button except on planes that had systems like adi, mw50, C3 injection etc....

Running the eng above the limit would eventually lead to overheating. I don't mean that running at 18lbs for 5 min 30 sec your engine should immediatly get damaged but the longer you run over the limit the engine temperature raises until a point where damage occurs unless you back off. I would prefer it to be some variation in the time limits before damage occurs but with "random" anything the whines will be to much.

For the 109E-4 (actually DB601A @ SL; but the numbers are just used as an example and of course will vary with whatever source HT uses.)

110% = 1.40ata 1 min
107% = 1.30ata 5 min
103% = 1.23ata 30 min
100% = 1.15ata continous

Of course we won't have percentage settings visible but we will have to watch mp and temp guage.

A common feature of the German fighter engine controls (post ‘42) was the single lever operation (engine and the propeller function to one control lever). The DB, Jumo and BMW systems were different in detail but they controlled the engine and propeller etc…. The pilot basically moved the "Throttle" to adjust the power at all speeds and altitudes. These “automatic” systems adjusted the mixture, ignition timing, supercharger speed, manifold pressure, engine speed (via prop pitch) and even MW50/GM1. Each version of these engines had their own particular set-up and variations.

This “single lever control” concept was shared among the various aircraft manufacturers worldwide and used by all sides.

All the accounts that I have read about LW pilots never mention micro managing their engines to get "more" out of the engine. They used the autamatic setting. If HT were to do it their wouldn't be a need to have it "turned on or off" because in the case of post 42 german planes an auto setting would be "historical".

Go to Zeno's drive in and watch those training films.  

Mixture control, superchargers etc are just simple button clicks. There's no need these shouldn't stay "automatic". The only time these would be an issue is if a nUb forgets to hit the button. Cowl/Radiator flaps are something I would like to see because they add drag when opened but again on germnan planes these were auto as well. Same with the 51.

The only thing that could really make a difference is wep and throttle design. 110%  should be max power 100% max continous. "WEP" would be the other boost systems like mw50, adi, c3 etc...
« Last Edit: February 11, 2004, 06:39:35 PM by Batz »

Offline Westy

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2004, 09:56:18 AM »
"Contrary to what a lot of people think, we actually would like to see people use engine management. But not in some contrived only-in-the-sim-world setup."


 Seeing your posts on this topic was a wost welcome surprise this a.m.  :)

 I concur with just about everything you wrote.  But HiTechs cryptic replies or no replies at all lead myself (and many others I'd wager) to beleive that AH was shunning more features to pursue more AW-like gameplay.  

 In the past I for one could not fathom why HTC modelled a much faster rate of fuel burn in the MA but didn't do anything to make NOT running around at full throttle appealing.

 Any additional features added to help replicate flying a WWII era airplane beyond the very simplistic "E" keypress and shoving the throttle to 100% for the duration of a flight is most welcome by me.

Offline Sox62

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #50 on: February 12, 2004, 01:28:25 PM »
IMHO the game already has a nice balance of realism and playability.Adding more chores just to stay airborne is something I personally don't care to see.

If I wanted to practice engine management,I'd go buy Flight Simulator 2004.

Just my .02

Offline ergRTC

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #51 on: February 12, 2004, 02:07:46 PM »
Thanks for the posts pyro, and I like the new throttle and rpm changes (now I can map the rpm to that other throttle and feel like I am doing something with it).

My question is do you plan on finding a way to keep people from firewalling all day or is fuel going to be the main way?  

I have read accounts in p47s (ace of the eighth I think), and p40s (from a history of the flying tigers), that pushing the throttle all the way up was a pretty big thing (at least that is the impression i got from their accounts).  Engine shaking, worrying about the transmission, watching the color of the exhaust, nervous looks at the oil pressure, and so on.  I dont think this was all because of the chance of a bad engine.  Looking at it from a car point of view, when you climb a good sized mountain at a high angle, after 30 minutes or so even new engines start to show they are not too thrilled about the amount of throttle they are getting over such a long time.


 I think this is an important part of enjoying the game.  As it is now we miss that part of the rush, cause there is nothing keeping us from staying firewalled all day and night.

Offline ergRTC

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #52 on: February 12, 2004, 02:08:24 PM »
oh yeah, and exhaust ques would really kick ass.

Online Vulcan

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #53 on: February 12, 2004, 02:41:52 PM »
Thanks for the (excellent) reply Pyro.

Offline 345

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2004, 03:45:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
In the past I for one could not fathom why HTC modelled a much faster rate of fuel burn in the MA but didn't do anything to make NOT running around at full throttle appealing.


  Just wanted to add my bit of verbage to this to say there is a small reason. I've actually bought the flight manuals for my favorite planes (F4F/FM2, P47) and am still looking for A6M info.

  One of the reasons I've done this is to find out the economy and cruise setings and I've actually use them in the MA so I can take off from damaged fields that don't have droptanks and also so I can take off at lower fuel loads. The cruise and max economy setings really do work for extending the range(for both the F4F and P47 they consist of RPM and Manfold pressure changes only). This lets me have a lighter plane incase I get jumped short of the intended destination but still be able to reach where I am going with fuel enough to fight with and return to base.

Offline ergRTC

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2004, 03:57:27 PM »
I think they have always kind of worked.  Just no audible response from the game.  There was a conversation about range and the LA7 that spawned a huge thread on that.

Offline Crumpp

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2004, 04:25:18 PM »
Thanks for your excellant response Pyro!

"Contrary to what a lot of people think, we actually would like to see people use engine management. But not in some contrived only-in-the-sim-world setup."

IS exactly the direction I want to see AH take.  There are some great suggestions in this thread.

Crumpp

Offline Pyro

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2004, 06:53:07 PM »
Erg, I think the accounts you're talking about are referring to emergency power which is a much bigger deal than military power.  There you are really talking about running the engine at its limit.  Like on the aforementioned P-51 where they talk about exceeding military limits as a long term maintenance concern rather than an inflight concern, it's not the same case with WEP.  You have to snap a breakaway wire to get to WEP and log the numbers of minutes at WEP after the flight.  A different maintenance procedure has to be followed after the flight.

I would like to see a reason not to use mil power so much but I don't want to blow up or damage your engine for doing it.  I don't buy the assumption that it's realistic, because it's not realistic as I've already outlined.  It's arbitrary.  Yes, there are instances where you turn to arbitrary solutions, but I don't view this as one.  So that takes us back to an original idea that we couldn't get working well and left half abandoned, and that is a good fuel consumption model.  But now we have it working like we wanted it to and can make it a central feature.  That's a big difference.  Grab a P-51 manual and setup some cruise conditions in the beta.  You'll get the right speeds and the right fuel consumption at the various altitudes and cruise settings.  

Engine management lies in the throttle and prop controls.  People chase red herrings like mixture control, supercharger control, etc., in the quest for more complexity, but the shocking revelation is that designers didn't want their planes to be complex and eliminated any pilot load they could.  To get an insight into how manufacturers and military brass looked at airplane systems design and the capability of the average military pilot, I highly recommend reading the transcripts of the 1944 Joint Fighter Conference published by Schiffer.  Look at the P-51 and look at all the systems that people request.  Mixture- automated.  Supercharger- automated.  There was manual override, but this was to do ground checks and the switch is spring-loaded to the automatic position.  Cooling flap- automated.  There was a manual override for this, but that was in the event of a malfunction with the temperature sensing circuit or something.  As pointed out, even the Germans didn't want to deal with requiring the pilot to make separate prop adjustments from the throttle.  If anybody is really hot and heavy on this subject, do yourself a favor and plop down $10 a pop for some flight manual reprints and re-examine what you think is necessary to the model.  Like I said before, I once was in that school of thought but found a lot of my assumptions to be incorrect.

Offline ergRTC

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2004, 07:54:02 PM »
I have heard of that cooling flap issue where newbies would overheat their mustangs cause the cowl would get stuck in the up position (and they were not watching, causing the resevoir to pop).

I think your solution will work for places like the TOD, and maybe the CT, and for me that is all that really matters.  Do you see fuel consumption ever limiting 'throttle' behavior in the MA?  Is that even something you are thinking about?  

This is such a tough issue, because realistically these planes had hours of flight time in some cases.  I guess the best test bed for this new tech will be in the BOB scenarios in the CT.  If 109s really only get 10 minutes fight time over england, IF they behave themselves on the way there.  

This leads right to the rush I was talking about, cause if you are ferrying a 109e over the channel trying to watch your fuel, and you spot a group of spitfires.....

Oh I cant wait!

Offline Octavius

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Feature Request please HT - engine management
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2004, 08:09:26 PM »
Erg, I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't know if fuel settings would 'teach' your average flyer not to firewall the throttle (non-wep) as many do in AH1.  

Your description of the BoB setup in another arena (CT, scenerio, future TOD) would definitely 'teach' average flyers to keep an eye on their throttle settings and fuel burn and anything else important.  However, in the MA, I believe it comes down to little more than a type of gentlemen's agreement.  Other than that, fuel porkage would dictate throttle settings. :cool:

I reduce throttle almost every flight when cruising.
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