Author Topic: Europe is weak  (Read 1663 times)

Offline Dowding

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Europe is weak
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2004, 03:32:37 AM »
Nuke - you're talking rubbish. Britain and France have nuclear weapons. If anyone wants to get uppity, they better mean it. While I'm not the greatest of fans of the EU, it has done a great job of stabilising relations across the continent. As we slowly bring the former Soviet states in from the cold, I expect the chances of war will continue to diminish.
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Offline Fishu

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Europe is weak
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2004, 03:56:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bike killa
EU is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar (at least that far) from being a "political" power. Who cares about what EU said? Others do care more about the "powerfull" countries of Europe say... and they say other things each.

It's interesing how USA can be a "union" of many states and live with it.

In europe once people are united, they are looking at the way to bake the union and come up with something better and new... :lol


US is pretty much one country, but EU is a whole lot of countries.
US has one president and a board of ministers, states do not have their own ministers.
In EU each country has their own president/king and a bunch of ministers..

Thats what it makes it complicated.

EU countries do have sort of states as well, the provinces.
Provinces can have some minor differencies in laws, their courts definately acts different from each other, some of the taxes...
Those just doesn't act as independently as states do, but much closer to comparison between US states, than the EU as whole.

It'd be easier if EU would have just one president and a goverment, but I doubt there would be many who would like of the thought..  I don't.
Europe is far more culturally and language divided than US.
How'd you like if you would travel from east coast to west coast and find out the people are speaking austrian instead of english and have a whole different architechture and other stuff? ;)

Offline Pepe

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Europe is weak
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2004, 05:39:17 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo

Now remind me the name of the 2 Europeans states who made the attempt of an European constition a no-go ?


Just one: France   ;)

Offline Momus--

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Europe is weak
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2004, 06:05:19 AM »
January 31, 2003
Great Britain: An Ally Apart From the Rest
Saudi Arabia seen as more reliable than France on Iraq


And what, 7/10 Americans thought Iraq were behind the 911 attacks? It speaks volumes really.

Offline majic

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Europe is weak
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2004, 07:55:44 AM »
You know, I keep hearing about that poll, but I've not met one American that thinks Iraq was involved.

Did you know 9/10 choosy moms choose JIF?

Offline bikekil

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Europe is weak
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2004, 08:35:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
I'm sorry Bike Killa, but you seem to be suggesting that Poland should have the same voice as France, Germany or Britain. How can that possibly be fair? The big three are the EU as far as the majority of the funding goes - who do you think is bankrolling the big infrastructure improvements in your own country?


Maybe i can't express myself good, or you can's see it. First thing about the EU (or you woudl say "big three") is the good old way of "fooling" our politicians with the vision. Then if the got cought, the deal apears to be different then promised. I will say once more - this sucks :)

Other thing i would like to see myself is to have the SAME right to decide about the EU future like other countries. Just because Poland got sold to soviets by the "allies" and now have to catchup on things i don't want to be ruled by that "allies" again... because i don't trust them. It may sounds harsh, but i don';t think "big three" will take care of my business... just for "big three" business.

then let me say it again. I wish i have the same right to decide about the future of EU (once we decided to join EU) and have 0 (ZERO) money from the EU once paying 0 to EU... that sounds fair? i believe that some would invest the PRIVATE money here and got his PRIVATE pockets full. I do care as much about "bit three" pockets ad they should care about mine :)

Offline Dowding

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Europe is weak
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2004, 08:50:54 AM »
Why should you have more right to decide EU policy than a Brit, a Frenchman or German? That is what you are saying if you insist on Poland having the same voice (smaller population).  

I don't know what the answer is, but it should lie somewhere between direct proportional representation and parity.

This thing about Poland being 'sold' to Russia; how could it have been avoided? Atomic war with Russia to free Poland? I'm sorry, but that is completely unrealistic. Millions would have died, and after 6 years of war prior to that, it wasn't exactly a welcome prospect.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Toad

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Europe is weak
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2004, 08:57:05 AM »
You guys could have an Electoral College setup for the EU. That's a balancing mechanism.

It's a lot of fun! Give it a try.

;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding

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Europe is weak
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2004, 08:59:16 AM »
lol :D
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline bikekil

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Europe is weak
« Reply #54 on: February 03, 2004, 09:33:16 AM »
You know Dowding, i just think we are not "adult" anought (as a countries) to be over the old way of thinking. We are not adult anought to be united :)

And that's why we are weak.

Problem is that i'd hate to see Poland having more iumpact on the EU then it should have.
The post of not paying and not taking anyting form EU was just my wish, however i have no doubt it's impossible.
I wish Brits have the same chance do decide about the furure on EU as the Poles ... or let's say Hungarians will have. To find the right formula is something what will decide about success of faliure of EU. I don;t see the current and proposed voting system good enought.

Other thing is that i'm not a nationalist. I wish everyone who see it as a good deal can come here and buy whatever he want to. I know that way noone can say "hey, you owe us so much.. shuddup now".
some said that we have France and Germany against us because of supporting US in Iraq. I don't think it's that way (however seing Chirac got mad about it is a great fun and actually makes me proud that i'm a Pole) but IF (just a "what if") it'd be true, i wish i owe nothing to them... and i can show them my finger and do what i think i should. I believe Gernans, Brits and every nation likes to feel the can do it because they decided so.

Point is there in NO external and internal politic of EU that suits a needs of all members of EU (Poland is not in EU yet). Without it, there will not be a united Europe.

Offline bikekil

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Europe is weak
« Reply #55 on: February 03, 2004, 09:35:29 AM »
Toad, i'd agree of sharing votes based on the National Football (the real one) Teams position in the FIFA rankings.
Maybe our team would work a bit harder then and i had something interesting to watch in TV :D

Offline Toad

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Europe is weak
« Reply #56 on: February 03, 2004, 10:38:17 AM »
Well, you could also do it like the UN. One voter per country in the "General Assembly" of the EU. Then a special "SuperDuper Council" that gives veto power to say... England, France and Germany.


Oh...... wait........ we've already seen how that setup works.


;)


Best go with the Electoral College idea. Each nation state conducts it's own votes and then their "Electoral Votes" are cast, the number reflecting their individual populations.

Just don't get the machines that punch out paper chads. Could get messy. :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Dowding

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Europe is weak
« Reply #57 on: February 03, 2004, 10:49:03 AM »
I know what you're saying Bike Killa, it is a tricky system to sort out and absolutely critical. I also don't mind the fact that Poland etc receive proportionately more EU money than the Western countries; I like to think it will benefit the continent as whole.

What I do have a problem with is the current undemocratic, over-bureaucratic set-up regarding the Commission and I despise beyond words the Berlusconi's, the Distain's and Prodi's within the EU. They are powermad nutcases or crooks or both. I wouldn't trust them with a penny of my money given the choice. I guess I am a bit Euro-skeptical, but like the concept of a unified Europe. The question is how to account for cultural differences and identity within the EU.

The electoral college works inversely with the state populations, Toad? I always thought it allowed small population "wilderness" states to have the same voice as densely populated city states.
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Offline fd ski

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Europe is weak
« Reply #58 on: February 03, 2004, 11:04:49 AM »
What Pei said is right.
Population not being homogenious will always be the brakes on EU car.
Unfortunatelly today most people think of themselves as Polish/ French first, europian second. Till those roles reverse, you won't have a EU in its true meaning.
And it will take a generation or two.
Opening borders to trade, travel and work will help people see past their little town mentality.
It won't be tomorrow, but it will happend.

Offline Toad

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Europe is weak
« Reply #59 on: February 03, 2004, 11:07:26 AM »
No, it's actually a pretty slick system. The old guys were pretty smart.

Every State gets TWO Senators. Period. Fixed rule, independent of population.

The total number of seats in the House of Representatives is limited to 435.  (I don't know how or when they decided on 435, but they did. I'm sure I could google it up.)

Every State also gets ONE House Representative, no matter how small its population. Additional Representatives are based on population above this "minimum".

Each State is allocated a number of Electors equal to the number of its U.S. Senators (always 2) plus the number of its U.S. Representatives (which may change each decade according to the size of each State's population as determined in the Census).

So, there's an "equality factor" from the two "Senatorial Electors" but it's also adjusted for population "House of Representatives Electors."

The Census, as you can see, is of MAJOR importance in our political system. A lot of folks don't realize that.

So all you EU's would have to decide a "max number of Representatives to apportion those votes.

Each would get a base of say 2 EU College votes (Senators) and then you'd get 1 more no matter what your population. This ensures everyone has at least 3 votes. Then, additional votes would apportioned based on the "max" and your population over the "minimum".

Our minimum works like this (I'm sure you physicists types like formulas.  ;) )


COMPUTING APPORTIONMENT

Quote
Equal Proportions Method
P - represents a state's total population

n - represents the number of seats a state would have if it gained a seat (because all states automatically received one seat the next seat gained is "seat two," and the next "seat three," and the next "seat four," and so on.)

The multiplier equals (1 divided by (the square root of n(n-1)) [which is called the reciprocal of the geometric mean]. Computing these values is quite easy using a PC and a good spreadsheet package.


Thus the formula for calculating the multiplier for the second
seat is:

          (1 divided by the square root of 2(2-1))
                               or
                   1/1.414213562 or 0.70710678

the multiplier for the third seat is:

          (1 divided by the square root of 3(3-1))
                               or
                   1/2.449489743 or 0.40824829

the multiplier for the fourth seat is:

          (1 divided by the square root of 4(4-1))
                               or
                  1/3.464101615 or 0.288675134

          Continue until an appropriate number of multipliers
          have been calculated.
Once the "multipliers" have been calculated, the next step is to multiply this figure by the population total for each of the 50 states (the District of Columbia is not included in these calculations). The resulting numbers are the priority values. Make sure you compute enough multipliers to cover the largest amount of seats in the House of Representatives that any one state stands to gain. Multipliers and priority values must be calculated for the largest number of seats assigned to a state. For example, if the largest number of seats assigned to a state is 50, multipliers and priority values must be calculated for the 50th seat. If you are using a PC, compute multipliers for seats 2 through 60. This will assure you have enough multipliers for apportionment.

Once you've calculated priority values for each state for the total anticipated seats, the next step is to rank and number the resulting priority values starting with seat 51 until all 435 seats have been assigned (remember, each state automatically received one seat). Next, tally the number of seats for each state to arrive at the total number of seats in the House of Representatives apportioned to each state.



Clear and simple, eh?  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!