what is up with the 190a5? (caution rant)

[Nath-BDP]

umm we don't have sturm version of the 190, if we do then it needs some armor upgrades.

[Fishu]

See folks, this happens when allies gets serious opponent that is not a pig in a sack.
Just wait till we get Dora or such monster.. poor allies, they will whine like LW did when they had poorly modelled 109G10 and piggy 190a8, except, those were at least non compatible unlike P-51 and such.

Now, allied cowards has found that they are not such highly skilled after all, they whine.
and LW grins with their skills that they managed to train during the time they flew with 'pigs' against mosquitos.

Better start retraining course, dear allies!
(so that you guys are ready for dora)

[StSanta]

Well, it flies like I would imagine the Sturm version would (cannot imagine it being anything else with that horrible climb rate), so please HTC, add armor  .

As a sidenote; I've had a bit of a slump lately. Tried the A5 again; 13 kills, 2 deaths.

It's a remarkable aircraft, but I got away only because I had lots of friendlies around. I would hate to meet a 109 for a 1v1 in it.

The serious disadvantage of the A5 is that it's slower than all but the T&B'ers such as the Spits, Zeke etc. OTOH, it fights in the terms of the Z&B'ers.

One indication that there might be something wrong with the flight model is the popularity and k/d ratio of this plae; normally, most Americans prefer their home made aircraft. Few flew the 109 (although I am seeing some more of them lately), even fewer the A8. Then came he A5, and now 50% seem to be LuftWobbles.

But, for a luftwobble, it is irritating. I can go for the 109's, but that gets repetitious after a while. Then I have the choice between A5 and A8. Unfortunately, even getting to 15k in a 75% + dt A8 takes forever. And then when you're there, you're likely to be bounced. With the A8 being pig-like in terms of climb and performance at low speeds, you really need an alt advantage.

So yesterday I found myself in the A5 for a few sorties.

Think I'll relearn the A8 again, for the challenge it presents. One dweeb HogC learned that SOME 190's pack 30mm's yesterday, and that HO's with 'um might be unwise >=]


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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

[minus]

yesssssss  

who is the best , the high score serious or the latest dweb who nail us when we thing easy move ?
 
be human and to saying the tru i also Whine when i pork my move and acouse, Is it the other plane ! , but is it only my OWN stupidity !  

RAm Rulezzzzzzz :-)

[Hajo]

For anyone complaining about the performance of the 190 I suggest a book by Alfred Price Titled: Focke Wulf, FW190 in Combat.  Mr Price interviewed many people inclucing Kurt Tank and the Dipl. Ing. that test flew the 190.  Here are some facts.  FW190 was electric, not hydraulic, did not use cable and pulleys for controls, used steel rods instead.  Result, sustained battle damage like a P-47.  The top speed of A models was the same listed as the SpitIX.  The plane was so easy to fly that the trim was "set on the ground and secured in place"!  Also the RAF was so insecure about the 190 they made a plan to hijack one!  SpitV pilots were really getting on the fighter staff to do something about the 190s!  Thus the MarkIX was born, but still could only out turn and generally climb with all A models but the A8, which the SpitIX could easily outclimb.  190 could out accelerate everything nose down but the Jug.  Get the book, it's a great read and you'll find out why the RAF coined the term "Butcher Bird" <G>

[maik]

What a whine, expected more than that Cit  .

Oh btw, can somebody explain to me how i do a warproll. I guess it must be some WB-Special move, maybe it saves me from bein shot down so often  .

I think I am missing here something.

Maik

[Vermillion]

Ok I will bite on this bait.

Before all you Luftwaffe fans stand up in defense of your favorite ride and claim to the high heavens that it matches the numbers, you better look again.

Yes the plane matches the numbers Funked posted for the A5, but the numbers Funked posted were for the 2 cannon version, and our 4 cannon version matches those numbers. So at the very least it is a little too good.

Do I believe that the A5 zoom's too well? To be honest, yes I think its induced drag is too low. But I'm not just going after the Luftwaffe aircraft, I think our P-47 (introduced at the same time) suffers from the exact same problem. They both go into the vertical like homesick angels.

I hope Pyro takes a look at both of these aircraft before 1.04 is released.



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Do I believe that the A5 zoom's too well? To be honest, yes I think its induced drag is too low. But I'm not just going after the Luftwaffe aircraft, I think our P-47 (introduced at the same time) suffers from the exact same problem. They both go into the vertical like homesick angels.

Id say that 190s nature is verticals..

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:


Yes the plane matches the numbers Funked posted for the A5, but the numbers Funked posted were for the 2 cannon version, and our 4 cannon version matches those numbers. So at the very least it is a little too good.

   

I regard this data as the A5's climb with 50%fuel+4cannons.

As you see, at 5K seems to be a bit less than 4100fpm. For me It looks quite accurate.

Over that altitude A5's climbrate (and acceleration) drops dramatically
to an average of only 3000fpm (all with wep).

I dont thing this climbrate is one of an UFO.

Regarding E retention, Verm...A8 zooms like a hell, keeps E very well at high speeds. So the "non-handicapped" 190A5 should keep E much better (it has less drag and weight).

And that is what happens here. no more, no less.

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-21-2000).]

[Jekyll]

Verm, weren't both the 190 and P47 renowned for their zoom climb performance?

"The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth.  Barely had the Spitfire started to follow - and I was a long way ahead of him by now - when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb.  In a straight or turning climb, the British ship had the advantage.  But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom".

Ya know, sometimes I really wonder about some of the guys who post on this and 'the other sims' board.  It's as though the only thing that matters is sustained turn.  Look at the current WB Jug ... do you REALLY want the AH Jug to be as 'vertically challenged' as the WB Jug?

Let the Spit have its turn and e retention, let the 109 series have its climb.. but for heavens sake let the 190 and Jug have their vertical performance!

Or don't some people like a fair fight?

[Vermillion]

RAM look at the RLM data that Funked has posted over and over, its for a 2 cannon 190A5. It matches exactly the performance that our 4 cannon A5 has in AH.

And you can't match the data for 50% fuel in AH to the real life data. The real data is from 100% fuel tests.

Guys I know all about the historical characteristics of the P47 & 190's, and that zoom climbs were their strengths. I don't argue that in the least.

But look at those two particular aircraft in comparison to the rest of the planeset. They don't fit in the way they should.

Its really funny that many of you that instantly jump onto me when I mention the A5, are the exact same people that are squeaking about the same problem in the P47. Oh so the P47 is wrong, but the A5 is absolutely correct? LOL!  

And Jekyll

 

Or don't some people like a fair fight?

Thats pure crap and you know it. I don't have a "favorite ride" and I am not a "Pony Boy" or a "Luftwobble". I play no favorites and have commented on the aircraft of every airforce in the game, both good and bad.

So don't pull this "Your just out to get the Luftwaffe, cause it has a good ride" malarky.

If that was so, I wouldn't have been one of the people that commented repeatedly, when the P-38 was severely out of whack, and had the same kind of incredible zoom performance.

Just ask Citabria, I go after ANY plane that I think is messed up.



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:
And you can't match the data for 50% fuel in AH to the real life data. The real data is from 100% fuel tests.

And the shot I posted is (I think) from a 2 cannon 50% Fw190A5,so the chart data SHOULD show better performance than REAL LIFE data.I dont see what are you trying to say here, with 100% fuel A5 doesnt climb at 4000fpm, that for sure (I know it well, I fly it all day long)


AH's 190A5 with 2x20mm and 50% fuel climbs at 4100feet/minute at 4/5K, Verm. So where is the problem?...a 4 cannon 190A5 WILL perform worse than in Pyro's chart, so I dont see the problem here.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-21-2000).]

[funked]

RAM - The climb charts are for full internal fuel.  That's how they did these tests in WW2 and how HTC presents the data.

They match my Wright Field charts for a G-3 (A-5 airframe) pretty well.  The problem is that my charts are for a plane with no outer cannon or cowl MGs.  http://members.xoom.com/mikewaltz/p76.jpg

So it's probably a couple of hundred pounds light.  Not enough to make a big difference, but still...



[This message has been edited by funked (edited 08-21-2000).]

[jihad]

See folks, this happens when allies gets serious opponent that is not a pig in a sack.
Just wait till we get Dora or such monster.. poor allies, they will whine like LW did when they had poorly modelled 109G10 and piggy 190a8, except, those were at least non compatible unlike P-51 and such.
Now, allied cowards has found that they are not such highly skilled after all, they whine.
and LW grins with their skills that they managed to train during the time they flew with 'pigs' against mosquitos.

Better start retraining course, dear allies!
(so that you guys are ready for dora)

 Fishu-your full of sh*t,I flew LW from beta until the P47 was introduced. Comments like yours aren`t needed or welcome.

 Instead of constant adversarial comments why don`t you learn a bit of tact?

[Mitsu]

>Then again, I promise, I never saw that "warp roll".

it really looks like "chute walking"
 http://members.xoom.com/Mitsuu/AHCentral/Films/chutewalking.ahf
please see it.

warp roll is very similar to this.