Author Topic: Gay Parenting  (Read 6360 times)

Offline Chairboy

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Gay Parenting
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2004, 03:22:20 PM »
Dogs and cats, living together.  Mass hysteria!
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline SOB

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« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2004, 03:41:31 PM »
Kieran, that's a HUGE can of worms that no one in this thread can answer.  It's not as simple as "does environment affect behaviors?"  Of course it does.  What you're specifically asking is "Will two gay parents be more likely to have a child that is gay?"  The comparison to an axe murder is completely invalid, even in the sense of the environment comparison...assuming the environment that helped breed the anti-social behaviors was an abusive one.

Of course, I don't really have a problem with anyone being gay - nor do I have a problem with a gay couple raising a kid...even if they might influence the kid's sexuality.  Though I don't think that'd be possible unless the kid had leanings toward homosexuality in the first place.  All behaviors can generally be linked to genetics and environment, and I don't doubt this is any different.  But the natural urge to procreate is pretty strong and unless you've already got the instinct build in that you dig the same sex, I don't think anything short of a terribly abusive environment is going to deviate you from what's natural for you.  Frankly, I think the only reason a gay couple might be more likely to have an openly gay child is the fact that the child won't have a fear of being shunned by his loved ones.  Of course, that's just my opinion - as I said, I don't think anybody here knows for sure.

And on the subject of axe murders, I don't know what "camp" i'm in, but if you kill someone without a damned good reason (ie: self defense or the like), you've given up your right to live with the rest of us.  I really don't care if you had a bad childhood, are crazy, retarded, or whatever, you simply aren't fit to mingle amongst the rest of us.
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2004, 03:48:03 PM »
Wow, I have never seen so many irrational and inane arguments in a single thread over such a stupid issue.

So what if the kid turns out gay? More of the opposite sex for all the heteros!

And with all the emotional candy bellybutton metros around, the difference between gay and straight isn't very distinct. They're both limp wristed *****es.
-SW

Offline SOB

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« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2004, 04:01:14 PM »
Shut up, studmuffin!
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Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2004, 04:03:52 PM »
Yes Sir!
-SW

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2004, 05:31:53 PM »
Quote
Wow, I have never seen so many irrational and inane arguments in a single thread over such a stupid issue.


Don't worry, I got a million of 'em!

Ok, since we can't get past the axe murder analogy, let's try single-parent families. Dan Quayle was laughed at for suggesting Murphy Brown was encouraging a pretty poor role model in single parenthood. "Ah, he's stupid, it doesn't matter!" Er... wrong. It matters, a lot. Looking at a segment of the population with a high incidence of single parents (blacks) we find the dearth of strong father role models has many negative effects on the culture, amongst them the ability to deal effectively with the opposite sex. This leads to a culture where it is commonplace for a man to abandon his family without a second thought. Oh, I'll get called a racist for saying that I'm sure, but it's true nonetheless.

It's like this... if you admit you aren't sure what impact something is going to have, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to jump right in and find out in some grand social experiment. I for one am tired of "enlightened" buttheads being totally wrong, and having the confirmation come far too late to do anything about it to reverse the effect. Look at our public schools- do you need to look farther than that to see the impact the so-called "enlightened" have had? Wanna look at all the bloated social programs that accomplish nothing but make segments of our society more dependent than ever and drain economic resources?

Offline SOB

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« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2004, 06:00:08 PM »
Yep, I agree that a two parent household with a mother and a father has been proven pretty well to be (in general) a better environment than a single parent household.  It may even prove to be better than a two parent father/father mother/mother household.  So what?  So, single people can't raise a child either because it might lead to a problem child?  Same with a gay couple?  Are we breeding a master race here, where only the couples who have the highest chance of successfully raising a superkid get to breed?

It's not a social experiment, it's minding your own business and letting people live their lives.  We're not waiting with bated breath wondering how little Timmy with turn out with Bruce and Tyrell, we simply don't give a **** because it's none of our business if they want to raise a child.  And because that child MIGHT be a problem does not make it our business.  Hell, YOUR kid MIGHT turn out to be a problem, but how you raise her ain't any of my business so I'll keep my nose out of it.
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Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2004, 06:02:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
It's like this... if you admit you aren't sure what impact something is going to have, it doesn't make a great deal of sense to jump right in and find out in some grand social experiment. I for one am tired of "enlightened" buttheads being totally wrong, and having the confirmation come far too late to do anything about it to reverse the effect. Look at our public schools- do you need to look farther than that to see the impact the so-called "enlightened" have had? Wanna look at all the bloated social programs that accomplish nothing but make segments of our society more dependent than ever and drain economic resources?


Bingo.  If you don't know what impact something is going to have (which you can never forsee 100%), it doesn't make a great deal of sense to jump right in and find out in some grand social experiment - especially not by coercing your views on someone else that may not agree.  Just because 51% of the population thinks something is "good" or "right" doesn't make it so.  Same with 90% of the population, or any other majority.  

The problem is, the existing laws regarding marriage, along with corresponding tax breaks, spouse benefits, tax deductions for children, etc, were a grand social experiment as well.  You hold up government interference in schools as a prime example of social legislation screwing things up.  The government's social legislation, in many other areas, has screwed things as well.  By coercing people into a particular view, you deny them the opportunity to decide for themselves under the guise that the majority knows best.  They don't.  As the average voter a question about nearly anything and you'll see that.  

My entire problem with opposition to gay marriage is that it's none of the government's business.  The only reason that the government is now making laws permitting gay marriage is because it made the mistake of making laws prohibiting it.  If it had just stayed the heck out in the first place, this would be a non-issue.  

Nobody is asking you to declare your heterosexual marriage null and go marry a man, but you are asking them to declare their life committments null and go marry someone of the opposite sex if they want things like tax breaks, spousal benefits, and the like.  The government (or the population, acting through it) does not know better than a lesbian/gay couple whether they should be able to marry, any more than the government knows whether you and your wife should be married.  That decision is up to the people involved, and them alone.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2004, 06:04:16 PM by Tarmac »

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2004, 06:09:39 PM »
You guys shouldn't worry about lil' ol' me, because I've already lost this argument. It merely becomes official in May. I don't have to like it, and I really don't, but that isn't going to change anything.

Tarmac, you're right, the government shouldn't be involved, but they are, and will be. I've never argued against that point. I've argued about the concept of gay marriage and where we're headed as a society. I've been out on this limb before, but dangit, I like the view I guess.

I'm not a very tolerant person in many ways. I guess that goes without saying.

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2004, 06:16:57 PM »
So oppose the government's involvement to the issue as a whole, not just the homosexual aspect of it.  

There, you don't have to be worried about anyone calling you intolerant or bigoted or any of those other terms that have lost all meaning due to lefty/righty social hijacking.  :)

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2004, 06:18:24 PM »
I was raised by my dad only, and I'm not a gun toting hip gangsta thats gonna break your daughter in, steal your stereo, and car jack you.

My sister was also raised by me and my dad with no mother figure that gets good grades at a tough private (catholic) institution and will be heading off to a nice college because of it.

Pretty much proving that raising a child depends on the parent's ability to effectively raise a child and not on their sex or how many of them there are.
-SW

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2004, 06:24:13 PM »
Hey, I'm bigoted, intolerant, racist, etc. Mea Culpa. I don't lose sleep over it.

SW, you came out okay, I came out okay, but we both know our upbringing wasn't in any way "normal". You've told me about your upbringing, you know mine- it wasn't the Cleaver's.

Anyway, statistics are way against you on the issue.

Offline Tarmac

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« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2004, 06:34:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kieran
Anyway, statistics are way against you on the issue.

Does that mean that people shouldn't have the right to try, though?

Offline AKS\/\/ulfe

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« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2004, 06:40:02 PM »
The statistics show that parents incapable of parenting, there are plenty of mother/father relationships that turn out horrible kids/murderers, result in extremely ****ty kids.

They don't go against my statement that its the quality of the parent(s) and their ability to do a good job as a parent in effectively raising a child.
-SW

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2004, 07:08:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
Gosh, if marriage is defined as something that is church driven, does that mean that my atheist, non-religious wedding is invalid as well?


Chairboy, for a small shipping & handling charge, I can see to it that your wedding is retroactively sanctioned and blessed by the proper Authority.