Author Topic: HTC: NOE Dar Bar  (Read 3579 times)

Offline Pepe

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »
Pretty please, no darbar for NOE flights!  

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Pepe

Offline xHaMmeRx

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2001, 10:43:00 AM »
$.02 from a newbie to AH...

All sides employed some type of ground based spotting system for detection of air-raids.  These systems consisted of both electronic and human intelligence.  Radar was not the only thing relied on.  If a NOE raid is coming in and one of the pilots "talks" using the text buffer, should the raid be identified?  In RL, radio intercepts often gave away valuable info used intercept the raid.  If one of the planes inadvertantly pops up above the radar threshold, how long does that counter stay up?  While no pilot in AH may be looking at that particular sector at the time, the RL radar operations center whose job it is to scan 24/7 would surely pick it up and determine that a low level raid was happening.  If the troops in the front line saw a bunch of bomb-laden P-47s or B-26s fly overhead at 200 ft, don't you think they would tell somebody?

The British confounded the Germans during the BoB with their ability to intercept the bombers.  The LW was able to detect the inbound bomber streams and accurately concentrate forces to intercept (albeit sometimes on the out-bound leg due to the time needed to concentrate their scattered forces).  Heck, the U.S. even detected the raid on Pearl Harbor with plenty of time to effectively intercept if only they had interpretted the radar correctly.  Did the detectability of raids lead to NOE attacks on Berlin or even on targets anywhere but on the fringe of the Air Defense belt?  Yes it did... at Ploetsi.  While low-level attacks of airfields and other facilities took place throughout the war, they were rarely done with deep penetration NOE raids.  More often, they were done with standard altitude approaches through skies where the allies had already effectively won air superiority.  

My point?  NOE as an available tactic any further into a country than the forward line of airfields is taking advantage of the things left out of the game.  While I understand the desire for it, let's be honest about how effective it would be.  The bar dars are probably the most accurate represnetation of the overall reporting systems available at the time.  All we know is that there are enemy planes reported in sector and that they don't appear on radar.  How else could that be interpreted?  It is a raid below radar or radar isn't working!  To make it more realistic, you could enlarge the sectors (giving more area to search) or create a lag between when a raid crosses a sector line and when it actually shows up.  This would emulate the time between reporting of in-bound raids and the time required to interpret and disseminate the information.  Totally removing any indication of a raid before it gets, let's say, to HQ where it destroys all radar is a bit far-fetched.  Even when HQ is destroyed, enemy "dar-bars" should still appear over friendly territory.  Again, there should now be some lag there, but the information would be available.  Now, NOE flights over your own territory shouldn't show up until you cross the enemy lines...

Dang, guess I gave $.10 worth here  

HAMMER

[This message has been edited by xHaMmeRx (edited 05-28-2001).]

Offline Nifty

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2001, 11:15:00 AM »
I'm all for NOE being off Sector bars, especially when I'm in friendly territory!    However, I don't think you should be able to NOE past several enemy bases to hit the HQ undetected.  Maybe NOE works up to the sector past the front line bases, but then you're "spotted" and put on the sector bar.  It'd probably be a bit hard on the coding, but it would add a fun factor to the game (NOE flying is fun!!) without ruining gameplay too much (NOE raids on HQ bypassing 5-6 fields would be bad for gameplay in general.)  
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Offline GunnerCAF

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2001, 12:24:00 PM »
In an MA setting, I find that if one or two people can move undetected and disrupt the play of a large group, it is not enjoyable to the large group.  In my opinion, no darbar for NOE flights rate right up with flying off the map.

NOE flight should be hard to do and they are possible now.  They are exciting because if you are found it is sure death.  I'm new to AH but not new to MA style play.  You can use the darbar to deceive the enemy by flying near sector sector lines.  Your radar dot is not visible and this means you could be anyplace in a 25 square mile area.  If you travel in sectors with other aircraft or make it look like you are heading for another destination, it is easy to move undetected.  If you have help from a few fighters making their presence known, you can also help hide your position. That's all the secrets I'm going to tell, but I'm sure if you are interested in NOE you can find more.  

This is what I like about AH map and darbar.  When there are more than 2 or 3 in the sector you can not get an exact count from the darbar (at least I haven't figured this out).  Dar dots do not have a tag.  In AW I could easily count counters and radar contacts to find see if they were all accounted for.  As an example, if we have a dead field and 3 nme counters in the sector, and 2 are fighters... guess what.. someone is below dar and it's time to start looking.  It is much harder in AH to do this.  

The ground war in AH is also developing and ground vehicles don't get any more closer to NOE.  For gameplay NOE flights and ground vehicles should show up on darbar.

The ultimate experience are historic scenarios and special events.  This is where map functions should be limited to achieve the event's intended outcome.

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Offline MadBirdCZ

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2001, 12:28:00 PM »
Hmm I don't see any reason why should NOE flights be shown on sector bars or as a dots. Even a flight of jabos must "pop up" before reaching the targer or else they are likely to become victims of ACK and when they pop up they will show up on radar anyway. So the other side would have a much shorter time to react but please correct me If Im wrong but I think that this is exactly the purpose of NOE attacks (and btw. I really enjoy NOE missions especialy in a B26 or Ju88 during the night (the night should last a bit longer)). Now you can flame me but I just said what I think...  

 

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Offline daddog

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2001, 04:09:00 PM »
xHaM...sent you an e-mail, but it bounced. We live only a couple hours apart. Drop me an e-mail.  

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Offline Nethawk

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2001, 05:41:00 PM »
I like Eagler's idea too.

The DAR, either dots or bar, would be much more realistic if they were active only when planes were in the proximity of the tower, or rather range of the radar.  Perhaps bases could be fitted with long range and short range radar - long range to be out for a period of 30 minutes if bombed, short range 15 minutes.  High alt bombers could then take out radar towers, which frankly should be a more strategic target than it is.  Leave long range radar activation as it is (until tower is knocked out), and short range radar could be activated based on enemy altitude and proximity to field - 10k out show for those over 500ft, 3k for those under.

Just an idea, but I think the concept of redesigning strength bars and radar would add an element of excitement and strategy in capturing enemy bases.

 


Offline Saintaw

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2001, 11:53:00 PM »
shut it off please


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[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 05-28-2001).]
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Offline darling

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #38 on: May 29, 2001, 12:14:00 AM »
It would be nice to get some input from Hitech about this issue. I would find the reasoning behind the bars very interesting, both as refers to gameplay issues and also realism issues.

It seems as of yet that the majority of posters support some sort of disablement of the NOE dar. Or at least a change in the way it works.

Another question is how it should affect the vehicles approaching the fields. Should we try for a spotting range, say 5 miles?

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[This message has been edited by darling (edited 05-29-2001).]

Offline hazed-

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #39 on: May 29, 2001, 01:22:00 PM »
agree about under 500ft no radar bar, but remember most of the terrain is above 500ft (so you are totally safe from NOE at say a26 in uterus map, what is it 6.5k elevated?) You could balance the amount of fields that are prone to jabo attack when you create a map to make everyone happy.Put HQ high up,front line bases could be a mixture of alts to suit all tastes.

the map that would hate NOE would be the islands map or the open water maps.On these the majority will probably fly NOE and will kill the jabo fun. This could cause a lot of frustration with people complaining you cant find a fight.
A way around this may be to have a 50 mile radar around fleets.This would make fleets highly valuable and sought after.And we could use them for something other than aimless wandering and as they respawn after 20 mins+time to get back to the front you would have time to use the 'gap in the fence' of radar made by downing a fleet.  

so the 500ft limit should be flexible in my opinion.In the islands map make it 150ft? in a map with rolling hills 500ft and mountainous 1000ft to allow fun canyon runs?

i dont know the answers obviously but i would like the same as ghosth, to be able to try it out and decide for myself.  

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p.s.vehicles Should be allowed to approach a base without setting off damn alarms at 5 miles! lol i can hardly hit anything other than hangers at 3.2 k and you want to be warned of me comeing at 5k+? bad idea i think.PLANES at 5 miles yes ok fair enough by that time you should be fast enough to take out things before you are swarmed but in a vehicle no way is that good for gameplay even though i agree they would be seen in 'Real life'.Im all for realism but this would stop me using GV's.

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-29-2001).]

Offline Zippatuh

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #40 on: May 29, 2001, 01:34:00 PM »
I like no dar below 500 ft, bar or dot.  In order to do any real damage to the target your gonna need to get some altitude before hand.  I would think that it would be 500 ft from the ground not sea level.

I also like the “base so-and-so is under attack” thing.  Could get kind of irritating though.  How many times would the message come out if a base were being attacked for an extended period of time?

Zippatuh

Offline hazed-

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #41 on: May 29, 2001, 01:41:00 PM »
zipputah im not sure 50ft from ground would be the way it would work.radar like any other wave was kind of line of sight but apparently this would be hard to programme into AH.50ft from terrain may also be very hard to implement, im not really sure, and be very surreal   you out of dar 40ft off mountain top?
I seem to remember posts about it being too difficult but i cant remember that good!.    

does anyone remember the posts?

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[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-29-2001).]

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 05-29-2001).]

Offline Eagler

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« Reply #42 on: May 29, 2001, 01:46:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Zippatuh:

I also like the “base so-and-so is under attack” thing.  Could get kind of irritating though.  How many times would the message come out if a base were being attacked for an extended period of time?

Zippatuh

I don't think a text message or a "check six" type audio would work just for this reason. All we'd need is the bar/dots to pop up once the attack has been spotted/detected. Either via the base tower or if the attackers fly within eyeshot of a player.
would like to see this given a chance. Haven't heard many/any objections to the idea.

Eagler

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Offline Zippatuh

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« Reply #43 on: May 29, 2001, 01:55:00 PM »
Hazed,

Yeah, I was thinking in a way that would be easy to change.  No such luck probably.  With most, or all, of the fields starting out at 1.5k, there wouldn’t be too many situations you could use NOE successfully.  I also really do not want to step into the realism realm with dar since the argument can be, it is in no way real.  That’s why I would have it 500 ft from ground level.

Eagler,

Exactly, your gonna have to pop up to drop ordinance anyway.

Zippatuh

Offline Karnak

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HTC: NOE Dar Bar
« Reply #44 on: May 29, 2001, 06:43:00 PM »
What about tanks, AA vehicles and half-tracks?  Wouldn't this give them free reign to sneak (slowly admittedly) wherever they wanted to?

After all, no tank breaks the 500ft AGL altitude unless something has gone very, very wrong.

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