Author Topic: What rights have we lost as U.S. citizens? (Read 5761 times)

crowMAW · « **Reply #120 on:** March 16, 2004, 07:46:05 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Martlet
I'm saying that if you obey the law, you have nothing to worry about.

That assumption is wrong.

These 23 people obeyed the law that they were accused of breaking. But they were convicted and put to death in the US:

James Adams, FL
William Henry Anderson, FL
Everett Applegate, NY
Thomas Bambrick, NY
Charles Becker, NY
Frank Cirofici, NY
Roosevelt Collins, AL
Sie Dawson, FL
Vance Garner, AL
Stephan Grezchowiak, NY
Max Rybarczyk, NY
Bruno Richard Hauptmann, NJ
Joe Hill, UT
Harold Lamble, NJ
Maurice F. Mays, TN
Willie McGee, MS
Nicola Sacco, MA
Bartolomeo Vanzetti, MA
Albert Sanders, AL
Charles Sberna, NY
Mead Shumway, NB
Charles Louis Tucker, MA
George Chew Wing, NY

Many others have wrongly lost years of their lives dispite the more strigent safegaurds that our Constitution provides sans the Patriot Act.

All in the US have lost rights with the Patriot Act. We all used to have strengent safegaurds against unreasonable search and seizure. Those safeguards have been taken, therefore rights have been lost.

Dogspit, you are correct that you and I may never feel the direct effects of those lost rights. But we have lost them just the same. Just as the the person who does not own guns would lose rights should the 2nd Amendment be weakened.

Further, it is the case that under the Patriot Act a secret court hands down warrants that are sealed to the public and the suspect. Even third parties are enjoined from notifying the suspect that their personal records (including medical records) have been seized. So it is possible that eventhough a person's rights have been violated, they may not know. But what is worse is that if the suspect is formally accused, the defendant has no due process to challenge the validity of that search warrant.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #121 on:** March 16, 2004, 07:58:19 AM »

Bruno Richard Hauptmann, NJ

Convicted of Kidnap / Murder of Lindbergh son.

Ransom in his posession, ladder built with his wood-plane at the scene.

BRH did it, he does not belong on the list

Quote from the source website of the info:

Quote

Under a barrage of scholarly criticism, Radelet et al. have backed off their original assertion that all these 23 were actually innocent. Their new position is that since all the cases were troubling in some way, there is a good chance that one or more might be innocent.

ravells · « **Reply #122 on:** March 16, 2004, 08:12:29 AM »

Well we never truly know whether anyone is innocent or guilty as a question of fact (as opposed to the finding of a court).

All we can do is to examine a body of evidence and test it against a standard to determine innocence or guilt in a court of law.

For that process to be reliable various safeguards need to be in place, and I guess the people who don't like the Patriot Act are saying that some of those safeguards are being taken away.

Ravs

Westy · « **Reply #123 on:** March 16, 2004, 09:03:41 AM »

"I suppose it would be when in due course you are actually denied something."

To vainly avoid getting nailed down as oblivious to reality the parrot changes his tune.

The point and the question "what rights has anyone lost? Name one!" was always what was being discussed. And there were plenty of intellegent, valid responses that you kept squawking back some grade school semantics crap with.

The Patriot Acts have suspended civil rights that American citizens used to have. Whether one needed to rely on them or not. And regardless of whether YOU felt thge public wanted them or not.
In the US the American way of life is not Martlettism, where apparantly you have a right until you need to rely on it only to find out you actually don't have it. Because your guilty before proven innocent and therefore don't need it the right for the law and government wouldn't harrass or arrest a "good" person now would they?. To try and tell people that they haven't lost a right only because they have not exercised it is plain ludicrous.

That's the same as telling someone that they haven't lost any of retirement savings tied up in the defunct Worldcom and Enron stocks because they didn't actually try to spend any of it.

As an Amercian citizen I have lost the right to privacy and due process even though I haven't violated any law. And that's not good. Only a proponant of a totilatarian regime, like that under Joseph Stalin or Saddam Hussein, would think it was.

_Schadenfreude_ · « **Reply #124 on:** March 16, 2004, 09:12:26 AM »

Not sure if it actually an effect of terrorist attack on the USA but it's an interesting read.....

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-1039092,00.html

Yeager · « **Reply #125 on:** March 16, 2004, 09:15:56 AM »

The patriot act is a piece of legislation that requires periodic re-authoirization from Congress. It is a TEMPORARY set of laws designed to address the constitution during a period of war.
Call congress and tell them your all huffed up and to repeal the patriot act already. In the meantime Ill ask my C-rep to keep it going as long as AQ poses a real threat. A clear and present threat.

Oh the sky is falling, the big jack booted thugs just want to kill us and eat our children. yeah, thats the ticket. Its like the militia freaks during the early 90s rambling on about black heliocopters because mean bad bubba klinton took our guns away.

Martlet · « **Reply #126 on:** March 16, 2004, 10:07:52 AM »

Still waiting for ONE person to give me ONE example of a right they have lost.

Westy obviously lost the right to comprehension.

Holden lost one of FDR's four freedoms.

crow lost track of the conversation topic.

Doesn't the fact that you have to talk about murder sentences and hypothetical situations involving gun ownership tell you anything?

You haven't lost a thing.

You know it, and I know it. The only people adversely affected by the PA are those who deserve to be. Your hatred for the current administration is clouding your thoughts.

ravells · « **Reply #127 on:** March 16, 2004, 10:19:02 AM »

As far as I can see Martlett you and Westy etc. are talking about two different things.

They are talking about the loss of rights under the PA.

You appear to be saying that the loss of those rights has not affected them because they have not yet been in a position where they have had to rely on those rights.

I think Westy tried to point this out to you at least once.

Ravs

2bighorn · « **Reply #128 on:** March 16, 2004, 12:28:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Martlet
Still waiting for ONE person to give me ONE example of a right they have lost.

I have lost right to travel to certain countries...
I have lost right of fair use...
I have lost right to defend my life and property...
I have lost right to due process...
I have lost right to privacy in my own home...
I have lost freedom of speech...
And I can't do it dogie style if I travel SE states...

You want links? Here:
Google
Yahoo
Altavista
Alltheweb

Frogm4n · « **Reply #129 on:** March 16, 2004, 12:34:07 PM »

martlet is a complete and utter moron for believeing that you can fully trust the government with the ability to hold citizens with no charges or a speedy trial. Its just an abuse waiting to happen.

It is a temp. bill that needs to not be renewed, or made permanent like bush wants to do.

Martlet · « **Reply #130 on:** March 16, 2004, 01:15:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Frogm4n
martlet is a complete and utter moron for believeing that you can fully trust the government with the ability to hold citizens with no charges or a speedy trial. Its just an abuse waiting to happen.

It is a temp. bill that needs to not be renewed, or made permanent like bush wants to do.

Frogman is a complete and utter moron for believing that the gorvernment has that ability.

2bighorn · « **Reply #131 on:** March 16, 2004, 01:22:39 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Martlet
Frogman is a complete and utter moron for believing that the gorvernment has that ability.

Material Witness Law...

Martlet · « **Reply #132 on:** March 16, 2004, 01:37:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 2bighorn
Material Witness Law...

So, we aren't talking about the Patriot Act anymore?

2bighorn · « **Reply #133 on:** March 16, 2004, 01:44:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Martlet
So, we aren't talking about the Patriot Act anymore?

I am talking about lost rights, regardless of administration or certain acts. I think that's what this thread is about.

I don't care about patriot acts so much because it's temporary (for now).

None of the rights which I listed in my first post are lost due to Patriot act.

hawker238 · « **Reply #134 on:** March 16, 2004, 01:56:34 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pei
So by your reasoning:

If I have a car and someone steals, I haven't actually lost the car until I need to drive it?

Don't loose sight of this argument, this is probably Martlet's weakest arguing point.

Please restate your counter to this argument.