Fw-190d-9 and Spitfire Mk XIV?

[funked]

FYI Fw 190D-9 could do 380 mph at S/L and 440 mph at 19k with MW 50 (RLM figures).  If properly modeled it will be quite fast enough!

[funked]

I don't think D-12 or D-13 ever made into service in more than Staffel strength.  About 1100 D-9 were built and something like 700 of them made it to combat units.

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:

I am really curious, because while the D12 might have a higher Max speed than the D9 by about 10mph. At most altitudes, especially the altitudes where most of the combat takes place in the arena, the D12 performs much worse than the D9.

Well, I have read about D12/D13 fly as 453mph at 20,600ft.
P-51 flies about 437mph at that altitude.. D-9 bit slower than P-51..
So, what we have here, is more than 10mph with greater armament..
(even 20mph faster)

[Mutt]

This is an interesting discussion. There are always specualtions as to the Fw190D9 and the Ta152.  I found this links posted in another BBS (maybe here).  It is a few stories from Allied pilots (and 1 LW pilot) and their encounters with these 2 aircraft. While purely anecdotal, it gives us an interesting look at these aircraft.

Please chck it out and enjoy.  
 http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/stories.htm

Mutt

[Vermillion]

Well, Fishu all I can say is that the documents I presented on the 190D12/D13 are about as good as they get.

It seems that there is always alot of confusion about German aircraft, and how they were tested by the Allies and the possible bias involved, including the arguement of test pilots totally unfamiliar with the aircraft.

But in this case its actual Focke-Wulf factory testing, their own pilots, signed and dated, and I believe even still marked with the equivalent of "TOP SECRET".  And these test flights were specifically for their own internal testing and developement purposes, not external distribution, so why would they not be as factual as possible.

The Test from 30 March 1944 gives its maximum speed at 695 km/hr (432 mph) at 10.5km (34,450ft).  At 6km (approx 20,000ft), its max speed was 660 km/hr (410mph).

I don't know where the 453 mph at 20,000ft number came from, but unless some supporting test flight documents are available, I am skeptical of that number.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
 
 

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-04-2000).]

[juzz]

 

The Fw 190D-12 was a fighter-bomber variant, which differed from the D-9 by having a three-stage supercharged Jumo 213F-1 engine rated at 2060 hp for takeoff mounted in a new, more extensively armored cowling. Armanent was one engine-mounted 30-mm MK 108 cannon and two 20-mm MG 151s in the wing roots. Although primarily a ground-attack plane, the D-12 also made an effective fighter and could attain 453 mph at 37,000 feet when MW 50 boost was used. Production began in March 1945 at the Arado and Fieseler plants, but only a few were delivered.

The D-13 differed from the D-12 by having a Jumo 213EB engine and by having a 20-mm engine-mounted MG 151 cannon in place of the 30-mm MK 108 unit. However, only a couple of prototypes were built.

[danish]

Thx Mutt ;=)

Good reading!
Im a great belever in anecdotes.After all they tell us what really happend (cept most of the times oh so open for interpretation), while the sims try to mimic those anecdotes with numbers.
And lets face it: do you now of a sim that has hit the right numbers all out yet?Just to hit the relative strenght\weaknesses can be a problem.

A competitive mid- late war Fw yes please.

danish

[Karnak]

And a competitive, late war Spitfire as well.

Kiitos

Sisu

[Hristo]

Well, give them their Spit XIV. So what if it is fast and outclimbs even a late war 109 ?  I am sure it also has its drawbacks.

Arena is no HTH and these advantages do not necessarily translate into an Uberplane. Also, the Spit XIV has the prop spinning in opposite direction and a nasty torque, not to be disregarded when flying it. It would not turn so wonderfully as Spit V too. It will probably still be easier to fly than our G-10, but historically it should be here. In WB, for example, 109K-4 could actually outmaneuver Spit XIV (not in sustained manuvers though).

However, do not stop at Spit XIV. Other countries had excellent planes as well. Luftwaffe had 190D-9 and Me 262 in numbers, and many excellent planes in fewer numbers (Ta 152, Me 163, He 162), or in various stages of development (Do 335).


------------------
 

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-05-2000).]

[jmccaul]

FW 190 D9, spit 14 etc. saw combat in reasonable numbers and had an effect on the war. It is probably reasonable to say that these planes would be better than the ones currently in AH in terms of pure performance but is there a rule if it's better than the 51 D it's uber and shouldn't be allowed?  

Would they be Uber - no. 2000 ft of extra alt, 20% less fuel, better pilot etc  would probably negate whatever climb rate, speed etc advantage they would have over current planes.

[Karnak]

Hristo,
I agree that the Fw-190D-9 should be in the game, the others that you that you mention though, Ta 152, Me 163, He 162, Do 335 and Me 262, should NOT be included.  In all cases, they are either Jets or were not used in numbers.  Many of them would be like asking for the P-80, Gloster Meteor or Spitfire Mk F.21.  All of these COULD have seen limited combat, but they didn't.  About 700 Fw-190D-9s and 900 Spitfire Mk XIVs DID see combat in the final year of the war.

Sisu

[Hristo]

Now Karnak, that is rude  

I agree with your Spit XIV and you deny me my 262 ? Saying "it is a jet, it should not be modeled". I guess Brits also complained about the same thing when 262 was introduced in 1944.

262 was built and served in numbers. From mid-1944. It was a high priority plane. It fought, it shot down planes, it was shot down too. Accept it, as well as we have to accept Spitfire XIV. Otherwise you sound like you just want a crutch for yourself. To me, Spitfire XIV and Me 262 fall into same category (Spit came few months earlier, 262 was built in greater numbers).

In fact, 262 appeared before D-9, was produced in greater numbers, and was considered the most important plane for the future by RLM. And your argument is "it is a jet". LOL.

P-80 or Gloster Meteor fall in Do 335 and He 162 category (never documented to have seen combat).

Even Ta 152 has higher priority, it actually fought.

------------------
 
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-06-2000).]

[juzz]

The Me262(if the engines were properly modelled) would be fine for use with historical limits in a historical setup - but with unlimited availability in the "Main Arena" it would screw things up bigtime, especially for bomber pilots.

[Hristo]

So again we agree, we need Historical Arena, pronto  

Yes, unreliable engines and discriminating fuel multiplier would surely hinder 262.

But then again, there are other planes which historically had unreliable engines, jamming guns, no ammo counters etc. Are they unproperly modeled ?

------------------
 
JG2 "Richthofen"

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 03-06-2000).]

[RAM]

Hristo I agree with you on many things, I disagree In a few points  

Yes, Give them their Spit XIV...but AFTER we LW get Fw190A-5 and Fw190D-9. And a 109K-4 wont be so bad too  .

Really, LW NEEDS some COMPETITIVE Fw190. The current one is a buff killer that cant kill buffs because the 1.8K buff-uber-fire. I want  a fighter and A-5 was great!!!. and also we need a plane to catch those runnin runstangs, so WE NEED fw190D-9. After that, yep, get your XIV.

I agree too with Me262. It isnt a uberplane, its only a Speedy buff killer. Try to turn in that thing and you are ded. Try to slow down a little and you are ded. Try to kill anything but a buff and you cant (those Mk108...  ). I would suggest to model it with all its faults. Make the engines SLOOOOOW to accelerate thrust. Make the plane the E-Bleeder it was turning...and Make an arena with 4 types of fields: Little, medium, Large, and Very Large. Each plane needs a kind of base, and whe Me262 would be restricted to the Very Large. (as in fact it was in WWII). In hands of a Experten like Hristo, it would be pure death. In my hands, for instance I would be a pure dead. This plane was possibly the hardest to fly well in WWII. Make it just as difficult as it was. Not an uberplane...an EXPERTEN plane. Its fair to include it.

Said this I'll also say that the 262 isn't a priority. Jap and Russian fans are disgusted (right to be) cuz they only have one plane each. See I dont like Jap planes, nor russian ones. but It is UNFAIR for them to have only one plane each. So there are priorities and this is a BIG one.

Hristo, I cant agree with you in He162, Do335...even When I'd love to have a Go229 again   Lets make this realistic, so we have REAL fighting planes of WWII not what-if planes.

And to those that says the Ta-152 was only a hi alt fighter...the Ta152 met in low alt furballs against Tempests V in last days of the war. They KICKED the tempest's asses. I there was only one ta152 Jagdgeschwader operational in last days of WWII (i cant recall exactly wich one). and there was one German Ta152 Ace. (dont remember his name but was one of the Tempest's bellybutton kickers   )


There are a bunch of planes to be modelled before Me262 and Ta152. We need russian (Yaks and Las), Japanese (zeros, Ki84, Ki61...) GERMANS!!!!!! (FW190A-5, D-9, Me109K-4)...right now there is an unbalanced situation. too many Brits and Americans for so few LW and Italian modelled Aircraft...


just my 0.02$

------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-06-2000).]