Discipline

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by texace
My dad spanked both me and my brother when we were younger, and now we're both in college and leading rather good young adult lives.

Yeah, we did poorly in school and we think violent behavior is a good response to everything...

The most common defense of corporal punishment that I see is, “My parents whooped me when I was bad and I turned out just fine.”
This is a faulty defense.  The use of corporal punishment does not mean that a child will become a heartless violent criminal, and once again you are talking about a pretty small sample size.  Kids who were raised with other discipline forms also turned out pretty well, so what?  Some kids who have terrible childhoods and parents, yet turn out very well, others have everything in the world going for them and end up a disaster.  A few examples prove nothing.

The key words in studies that criticize the use of corporal punishment are: more/less likely, can lead to, increases/decreases the risk/likelihood, show more/less, etc.  Guarantees are not implied.

What counts in understanding such issues is not pulling out a few first hand examples; but to compare 500 kids who were disciplined with corporal punishment to another 500 similar kids who were NOT disciplined with corporal punishment (similar in socioeconomic, race, region, etc.).  When you use such a scientific approach, the problems of using corporal punishment clearly become evident.

eskimo

[Thrawn]

Originally posted by eskimo2
The most common defense of corporal punishment that I see is, “My parents whooped me when I was bad and I turned out just fine.”
This is a faulty defense.

Yoink.


"Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also Known as: Appeal to the Old, Old Ways are Best, Fallacious Appeal to the Past, Appeal to Age


Description of Appeal to Tradition

Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:


X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html

[Ripsnort]

From my experience:

Families that do not punish children in the form of a spank or two: Kids end up losers, disrupters, the type you see in the grocery store where they're telling their parents  to shove it...

Families that do:
Kids end up very polite, thoughtful, and caring.

That's all I need to know(My own experience). I'm no doctor, but common sense tells me a swat keeps kids in line. (We're not talking "Hitting" as Funks article suggests")

(Caution: the aforementioned experience is only from male children)

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
From my experience:

Families that do not punish children in the form of a spank or two: Kids end up losers, disrupters, the type you see in the grocery store where they're telling their parents  to shove it...

Families that do:
Kids end up very polite, thoughtful, and caring.

That's all I need to know(My own experience). I'm no doctor, but common sense tells me a swat keeps kids in line. (We're not talking "Hitting" as Funks article suggests")

(Caution: the aforementioned experience is only from male children)

Rip,

I think that you are assuming a lot; that all of the other well behaved children in the store are disciplined with corporal punishment. My personal experience has shown that some parents in stores hit their kids when they act up, and sometimes it only makes the kid’s temper tantrum and crying worse.  

The parents of kids in stores who tell their parents to shove it are not representative of the alternative of corporal punishment; they represent no form of punishment or parenting.  You are oversimplifying discipline.  It is not an issue of spank or do nothing.  There lots of very effective discipline options other than spanking.  When my kid act-up, she loses TV, computer, or a multitude of other privileges.  She learns to behave, and also learns that violence is not an option and that her parents will never hurt her.

eskimo

[Thrawn]

"From my experience:

Families that do not punish children in the form of a spank or two: Kids end up losers, disrupters, the type you see in the grocery store where they're telling their parents to shove it...

Families that do:
Kids end up very polite, thoughtful, and caring.

That's all I need to know(My own experience). I'm no doctor, but common sense tells"


Bull.  "Common sense" is nothing but a lable for reasoning that one doesn't understand.  Nice try on the false humility though to try and lend validity to your arguement.


"Fallacy: Biased Sample

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also Known as: Biased Statistics, Loaded Sample, Prejudiced Statistics, Prejudiced Sample, Loaded Statistics, Biased Induction, Biased Generalization

Description of Biased Sample
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is biased or prejudiced in some manner. It has the following form:


Sample S, which is biased, is taken from population P.
Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.
The person committing the fallacy is misusing the following type of reasoning, which is known variously as Inductive Generalization, Generalization, and Statistical Generalization:


X% of all observed A's are B''s.
Therefore X% of all A's are Bs. "

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/biased-sample.html

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by eskimo2
When my kid act-up, she loses TV, computer, or a multitude of other privileges.  She learns to behave, and also learns that violence is not an option and that her parents will never hurt her.

eskimo

Well, speaking for my kids, they did not even know what a loss of priviledge was at age 2, Eskimo, and I have a hard time believeing yours did as well.  Kids don't have the ability to understand what "future" loss of privileges are, unless its immediate (such as taking a toy from their hands at that immediate point in time)

First off, my kids never acted up in a store. Why? Because first and foremost they are always positively reinforced for good behavior, which lessons the chances of bad behavior.  However, they knew what the consequences for bad behavior was, a swat on the butt...thus making good behavior that much more desireable and easy to do from their view.  One does NOT work without the other.(Positive reinforcement/negative punishement)  You have to have both. If you don't, you're failing as a parent. Now, I can count the numbers on my hand that I've personally had to spank my children, it was very few, however, it was VERY effective, and promoted good behavior, and quickly.

I certainly agree it all depends on the kid, my youngest has been spanked twice, my oldest probably 7 or 8 times...they're all different.  I congratulate you if you've never had to spank your child, but there are those of us that have had no choice but to turn to that method, and guess what...it works.

I will never condemn a parent for not spanking a child that didn't deserve it,(All other methods worked)  but I *will* condemn a parent for not spanking a child that should have been!

[midnight Target]

One does NOT work without the other.(Positive reinforcement/negative punishement) You have to have both. If you don't, you're failing as a parent.

Fortunately this is just not true. Assuming you equate punishment to "swats".

If a positive behavior is fostered through the avoidance of punishment, then the absence of the punisher opens the door to the opposite behavior.

Remember the golden rule of parenting. (OK I'm making it up, but it should be a golden rule)

You are raising future successful adults, not well behaved children. There is a big difference.

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
Well, speaking for my kids, they did not even know what a loss of priviledge was at age 2, Eskimo, and I have a hard time believeing yours did as well.  Kids don't have the ability to understand what "future" loss of privileges are, unless its immediate (such as taking a toy from their hands at that immediate point in time)

First off, my kids never acted up in a store. Why? Because first and foremost they are always positively reinforced for good behavior, which lessons the chances of bad behavior.  However, they knew what the consequences for bad behavior was, a swat on the butt...thus making good behavior that much more desireable and easy to do from their view.  One does NOT work without the other.(Positive reinforcement/negative punishement)  You have to have both. If you don't, you're failing as a parent. Now, I can count the numbers on my hand that I've personally had to spank my children, it was very few, however, it was VERY effective, and promoted good behavior, and quickly.

I certainly agree it all depends on the kid, my youngest has been spanked twice, my oldest probably 7 or 8 times...they're all different.  I congratulate you if you've never had to spank your child, but there are those of us that have had no choice but to turn to that method, and guess what...it works.

I will never condemn a parent for not spanking a child that didn't deserve it,(All other methods worked)  but I *will* condemn a parent for not spanking a child that should have been!

Clearly immediacy is the key to punishing little ones.  I’m sure that you wouldn’t spank a 2 year old for something that they did much earlier.  My two year old gets something taken away or time out immediately for misbehavior.  My four year old can get time out and lose privileges for misbehavior.  At four she understands that her actions can lead to a loss of privileges.  An important part of our discipline routine is that she is told why she is in trouble, why she shouldn’t have done what she did, and what a better choice would have been.  When she gets out of time out, or refers to a lost privilege, she is asked to explain in her own words why she went to time out or lost the privilege, and what she should have done.  Through this process, she clearly shows that she understands.

A week and a half ago the four year old didn’t clean up her room after being ask to a few times.  My wife and I put all of her books, toys and clothes that were on the floor into trash bags.  Since then she has cleaned her room after the first request.

Last week my two year old ran down the driveway toward the street.  My wife and I took turns chewing her out.  Then I drew a face on a potato and told her, “This potato is you Britta, and this is what will happen if you get hit by a car.”  I then had her watch as I ran the potato over with my car.  The way she screamed and cried you’d have thought she saw a puppy get run over.  For a two year old, I think that she has a pretty good understanding of how dangerous cars can be.  (The problem is she is generally fearless and doesn’t seem to learn after getting hurt.)

My point is; good parenting is not easy or simple.  Each situation may require a bit of reasoning, talking, explaining and creativity.  IMO, A parent who resorts to spanking has simply run out of good ideas and has resorted to a primal, instinctive and simple approach.  Negative reinforcement does not have to include violence to be effective.  

eskimo

[midnight Target]

Oh great... now she's gonna be scared to death of Mr. Potato Head.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Fortunately this is just not true. Assuming you equate punishment to "swats".

 

No, I am not equating it to swats..however negative punishment is in most cases an escalation process.  Some kids understand sooner than others and change the behavior before it comes to that..

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by midnight Target

You are raising future successful adults, not well behaved children. There is a big difference.

Never seen adults who were successful who were not "well-behaved" (which is a broad term) , except for the rare occasional Rap star or Hollywood star.

Respect and responsibility is what I teach.

[txmx]

I spit on my father once when I was 8.
Hey whooped my little butt.
I never have spit on anyone ever again.
Was It the spanking that taught me the lesson?
I dont know but what ever it was it was a lesson i never forgot.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by eskimo2
IMO, A parent who resorts to spanking has simply run out of good ideas and has resorted to a primal, instinctive and simple approach.  

eskimo

Obviously we disagree here, and I certainly disagree with "simple approach"...kids tend to understand simple approaches, why complicate things for a mind still developing.  If X happens, Y will happen, if X continues to happen, Z will happen. K.I.S.S.

Originally posted by eskimo2
 Negative reinforcement does not have to include violence to be effective.

eskimo

Here we agree...it does not HAVE to include, but where we differ in opinion is that I believe it should be used as a last resort when all else fails, if not, then you have "an Austin" like my original post displayed.

Neither of us is wrong or right, we each have a different approach to it. And, I might add, try having two sons, girls are easy compared to boys for behaviorial problems at a young age.

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by txmx
I spit on my father once when I was 8.
Hey whooped my little butt.
I never have spit on anyone ever again.
Was It the spanking that taught me the lesson?
I dont know but what ever it was it was a lesson i never forgot.

\

My father claims I was spanked on more than one occasion but I do not remember it.  I do remember at age 5 of losing some privileges because I used one of his antique fishing poles for a sword, but by that age spanking was long gone.

Just having him in my face put the fear of God in me, and straightened out any unwanted behavior.

[txmx]

Originally posted by Ripsnort
\



Just having him in my face put the fear of God in me, and straightened out any unwanted behavior.

I know what you mean LOL.
My Dad was a retierd Marine and he ran the house like boot camp.

Nothing like having to wear your hair high and tight during high school in the 70s LOL.

But his strong hand is what kept me from ever doing something stupid and going to prison or getting killed.