Author Topic: Suggestion on perk values..  (Read 6816 times)

Offline jodgi

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Suggestion on perk values..
« Reply #75 on: June 07, 2004, 03:21:07 PM »
There are other ways of TRYING to balance the MA without resorting to "force", applying perk value feels like "force" to many players.

I have one suggestion that is based on motivation, therein lies it's weakness, but I don't think that full balance will ever be achieved as long as players can choose freely.

There will always be an overweight of certain popular plane models unless drastic and restrictive measures are taken.

My suggestion will not fix everything, far from it, but it may help a little.

The suggestion.

Offline Zanth

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Suggestion on perk values..
« Reply #76 on: June 07, 2004, 03:29:25 PM »
It's been kicked around before

never got an official feedback on the idea though (that I have seen)

Offline LoneStarBuckeye

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« Reply #77 on: June 07, 2004, 04:00:54 PM »
This is an interesting thread.  For what it's worth (not much), Kweassa, I think you've gotten the better of the argument.

I've got relatively little experience with on-line flight sims:  AH is my first and only, and I've been here a couple of years now.   [Insert obvious disclaimer for lack of experience.]

It seems that the perk system is broken, because perk points and perk planes are relatively useless.  The problems with perk planes, much discussed elsewhere,  are the predictable result of the stigma that attaches to a plane once it is placed on the perked, non-free list (the perk-plane icons exacerbate these effects).

As I see it, the system will never really work until the perk stigma is removed (unless the goal is to essentially remove certain planes from the game, in which case they could simply be removed from the game).  It seems to me that there are two ways to do this:  perk nothing or perk (almost) everything.  Kweassa's approach leans toward the latter, and I think that's the way I lean as well.  

I realize this will never be adopted, but I think I would try a system something like the following:  The perk prices for planes are adjusted periodically (e.g., daily) according to a heuristic that considers objective performance factors (e.g., level speed, climb rate, sustained turning rate, roll rate, range, WEP endurance, cockpit visibility, gun lethality, ordnance capability, etc.) and subjective performance factors (e.g., % usage and the various factors that comprise fighter and attack scores).  I would not consider historical usage or date of introduction, as neither matters in the non-historical MA.  The current country imbalance factor is layered on top, to really give that balancing mechanism some teeth.  

What this would yield is a feedback system in which a plane's perk price is adjusted from a nominal, performance-derived value, depending on the relative extent and efficacy of its MA usage.  The weight given to subjective performance factors is the feedback "gain" and determines how quickly and forcefully the system seeks to discourage (relatively) the use of common and/or effective planes.  I would suggest a cap on deviation from the nominal values so that, for example, a Zero could never cost more than a P51-D, no matter how much or to what effect it is used.  It might also make sense to place a deadband in-line with the subjective factors so that, for example, the nominal value of a plane would never be adjusted until its MA % usage rises above a certain level.  (Actually, I would prefer a completely objective pricing criterion, but I realize that there are those in favor of diversity for diversity's sake.  Also, there likely are some factors that make planes more or less effective than the "numbers" would indicate that would show up in the subjective valuation.)  

I realize that there is the "what about guys who have no perks" problem, but that can be dealt with in any number of ways, such making all planes free for a month or two or three after subscription and then always maintaining a relatively small set of planes that are absolutely free.  I would also make it easier to earn enough perk points to fly one's plane of choice.  For instance, I'd select the nominal values such that just 1 or 2 kills of a "like" plane in a step-down model (e.g., La-5) would earn a flight in a step-up model (e.g., La-7).

If you don't like the notion of "forcing" people to fly something other than what they want to, then you'll just have to accept that there will always be a "Big 4."  (Perhaps there will be no matter what you do.)  Personally, I don't have a problem with that, and I'd suggest that as an alternative, just get rid of the jets and rockets and unperk everything else.

Just my $0.02,

JNOV

Offline Seeker

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Suggestion on perk values..
« Reply #78 on: June 07, 2004, 04:09:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by clouds
Uhm.....strange thing.
I've always thought AH is a simulator not only an arcade game :confused:
But probably I made a mistake. :eek:


You didn't make a mistake; but you're a bit simple in your definition of "simulation".

AH in the MA is a simulation of second world war aircraft; it's not a simulation of the second world war it's self. That's what Events; and to a lesser extent, the CT are trying to do.

Many here make much the same mistake; and many game play suggestions are dismissed out of hand as being a transparent attempt to steer the AH MA into being a second world war simulation; a rolling plane set (which is what I believe you're suggesting) is the most common of these.


Kwessas suggestion is more interesting because instead of using contentious date or number issues; he goes right to the core of suggestions that in his view would open and improve game play in the MA _as_it_is; without introducing spurious historical argument. As such his discussion deserves attention: we all want a better game; though we may not agree how to achieve it.

Personaly; I think that maybe not enough attention is given to the positive effect of perkplanes. Right now; they're expensive and rare; because even the better pilots such as Laz and Wotan don't apprieciate the "gang me!" label that perk icons currently provide.

However; if a new, much cheaper class of perk plane were to arise; then it could be that newbies themselves see the perk label as a "badge of competance" and that earning the few points they would cost would become a point of distinction; and seen as an object to aspire to; if only for squad nights.

Additionaly; the perk system is, if anything, a gentle attempt at steering arena behaviour; and as such it will never work  as long as only the plane; and not the effect it may have; i.e. ordinance is taken into account.

« Last Edit: June 07, 2004, 04:11:28 PM by Seeker »

Offline Mugzeee

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« Reply #79 on: June 07, 2004, 04:24:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
As a Guy who baseporks I can tell you that for the most part
"Pork and auger dwwebs" are a figment of your imaginations.

  I've seen VERY few people come in. pork a base and then intentionally auger. I know I never ever do this And I know not one person that does this.

  Speaking from experiance,99% of the time what your probably seeing is the base ack doing its job albeit late or someone in a manned ack hitting a plane and knocking out its controls to the point where the plane is unflyable and thus it crashes.

  Are there people who pork and auger? Probably
But those people are few and far between.

Well Said. And you speaketh the truth. :)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2004, 04:27:24 PM by Mugzeee »

Offline Mugzeee

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« Reply #80 on: June 07, 2004, 04:30:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Shoot, ask Zanth about pork and auger.

My ingame nic Helvik, I was in a 109E and a 51 came in. I closed position to d1k. He dove from 12k to 3k and ran at the field. I told Zanth I couldnt catch him in an emil and Zanth went after him. Before he got there the p51 blew himself up on the ole "pork'n'auger".

This wasn't this guys 1st or last trip either... He did it several times trying to take out 1 FH at a time.

Has it ever occured to you that hes not a very good Dive Bomber?
Duh!

Offline Batz

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« Reply #81 on: June 07, 2004, 05:07:39 PM »
after the 1st 5 trips ya think he would have figured it out.

Hes a typical pork and auger "mishun" dewd who would rather kill himself getting the last tool shed rather then fight and die vrs a human.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #82 on: June 07, 2004, 08:11:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
oh bs I watched whole attacks fly into the ground.

You cant hunt "tool sheds" offline and save money at that...


Then you have experianced a rarity.
 Because while I've seen them also I could probably count on 1 hand with a bunch of fingers left over how many times I've seen it in the 2 years Ive been around.

but to insist this is a wholesale common happening is a crock itself
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Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #83 on: June 07, 2004, 08:52:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
after the 1st 5 trips ya think he would have figured it out.

Hes a typical pork and auger "mishun" dewd who would rather kill himself getting the last tool shed rather then fight and die vrs a human.


 He Who?
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Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #84 on: June 07, 2004, 09:15:56 PM »
Interesting how the "lines" are split for both within the group of "Yay-sayers"[i/] and "Nay-sayers" ;)

 Some may argue that the perk system is working fine. Others may say it is not. Others may want a limited perk applied to planes they want them to be.

 What is undeniable that the arena, has settled for its favor on some particular planes - known as the "Big Five" - which five planes of the entire set claim 45% in total kills gained in the MA.  And this trend has started years before, and up to date, has not simmered down. It has been going on long enough to properly assume that it is not the individual who must change, but the system that must change.

 If all of the individuals that take part in hording the arena usage to five planes can change, the arena would have balanced itself a long time ago.

 The "equilibrium" of plane usage has settled down to this 'shape' we know of today, because the MA environment itself promotes those very planes.

 Again, a simular experiment was (albeit unoffcially) done in the CT. It was proven to work on a smaller scale there. I think it will work on a larger scale, too.

 ...

Offline Montezuma

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« Reply #85 on: June 07, 2004, 10:13:43 PM »
P-51D will never be perked in the MA.

Offline Mugzeee

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« Reply #86 on: June 07, 2004, 10:17:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Interesting how the "lines" are split for both within the group of "Yay-sayers"[i/] and "Nay-sayers" ;)

 Some may argue that the perk system is working fine. Others may say it is not. Others may want a limited perk applied to planes they want them to be.

 What is undeniable that the arena, has settled for its favor on some particular planes - known as the "Big Five" - which five planes of the entire set claim 45% in total kills gained in the MA.  And this trend has started years before, and up to date, has not simmered down. It has been going on long enough to properly assume that it is not the individual who must change, but the system that must change.

 If all of the individuals that take part in hording the arena usage to five planes can change, the arena would have balanced itself a long time ago.

 The "equilibrium" of plane usage has settled down to this 'shape' we know of today, because the MA environment itself promotes those very planes.

 Again, a simular experiment was (albeit unoffcially) done in the CT. It was proven to work on a smaller scale there. I think it will work on a larger scale, too.

 ...

Indeed it will change the balance and the game. Fact is..a new patteren Big 5 or Big 6 or 7 or what ever, will eventually take hold. And presto..someone will re-visit the "Perky issue" again. "Most people dont like change" This is a simple fact played out in the game and here in the BBS more times than we can count. Why do you think players settle in on a givin ride? Cause we have been told, (rightly so) to "find a plane you like and stick with it" this is the single best advise a new player can take. And an old player soon learns that he/she can benifit from this advise as well.
Promoting a perk system that will put/force/manipulate more customers in the Aircraft of an individuals chosing. Or the notion that overhauling the perk system to dictate Whom flys what, or how much it get's flown will "balance" the MA is simply ridiculas.
Inside of 4 months tops, a NEW Cluster of favorites will develop. And would consist of 4 to 6 AC types. ie. 1 to 2 ea.TnBers 3 ea.HITnRunners and 2 ea. ROPEnDopers.  Thats about IT! if anyone thinks the vast majority plays AH for the romance of the WWII AC ..your Nuts. The majority paly for one simple reason. We want to Beat the other "Human" player.  Why AH..cause its simply the game that offers a very large player base (500 to 600+ online at times )In fact..If your were to develope a Modern JET Fighter,  massive multiplayer sim.. id bet a weeks wages that much of the AH community would vanish from HTC as soon as word got around. For most players Its about the adrenalin Rush. Give us YF22's F18,s SideWinders, stingers and a 300 player arena.. And all Helll will break lose
« Last Edit: June 07, 2004, 10:23:20 PM by Mugzeee »

Offline Batz

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« Reply #87 on: June 07, 2004, 10:17:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Then you have experianced a rarity.
 Because while I've seen them also I could probably count on 1 hand with a bunch of fingers left over how many times I've seen it in the 2 years Ive been around.

but to insist this is a wholesale common happening is a crock itself


If had been here 2 years you would already know what I have to say about building battlers and pork auger types.

I am not gonna re hash it here, do a search.

I have been here since the doors opened so my "experiences" a bit more then yours. So quit being dishonest and go catch that last tool shed, he's gettin away........

Offline Mugzeee

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« Reply #88 on: June 07, 2004, 10:26:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
If had been here 2 years you would already know what I have to say about building battlers and pork auger types.

I am not gonna re hash it here, do a search.

I have been here since the doors opened so my "experiences" a bit more then yours. So quit being dishonest and go catch that last tool shed, he's gettin away........

Barely...guess you did say"bit". Carry on.

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #89 on: June 08, 2004, 01:22:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
If had been here 2 years you would already know what I have to say about building battlers and pork auger types.

I am not gonna re hash it here, do a search.

I have been here since the doors opened so my "experiences" a bit more then yours. So quit being dishonest and go catch that last tool shed, he's gettin away........


Your experiances may well be more then mine so thus you may have seen it more then me based on time alone.

And yea I do know what you have to say about em. but to be perfectly honest I'f youve seen me around you will know I dont really give a damn What you, Or anyone else on this planet thinks about just about anything. Your words,thoughts or opinions are no more or less valid then mine or anyone elses.

I am far from being dishonest I am simply telling it as I see it and I stand by my words. This idea that wholesale pork and intentional augering is going on is a crock
You dont like me hitting toolsheds. Either stop hoarding me, or stop me. Your choice
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty